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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#441

Post by mckoss »

res0nat0r wrote: post #205
ataggart wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds)…

Imagine that Padmapper were released as an alternative web browser. As an end user, I have the right to consume CL's content. Do they have a right to tell me which web browser I can and cannot use?

Since CL offers their data freely to "the public", by what theory can they prevent the public from using their own chosen client browser to view it? Why should there be a distinction between software installed in my computer and a cloud-hosted application like Padmapper?

I believe that Padmapper, as an agent acting on behalf of its users, has every right to reformat the information originating on CL as long as it does not purposefully seek to cause confusion about the origin of the data (which they do not as they link to the source).

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#442

Post by icebraining »

SilasX wrote: post #407
icebraining wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read that link: the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compilation work such as a database must contain a minimum level of creativity in order to be protectable under the Copyright Act. The Supreme Court (...) held that Rural's white pages are not entitled to copyright protection, since the white pages did not meet the statutory requirement for originality under 17 U.S.C. §102(a). Cragslist is completely auto…

>Cragslist is completely automated. There's absolutely no creativity involved. Whoa whoa whoa, the coding of the site didn't involve a species of creativity? If you mean that the content of a posting didn't involve creativity on Craigslist's part, you'd be on firmer ground, but even there they made design decisions (however questionable...) about how to present it.

I said that in the context of the previous post, you can't read it in isolation.

The design decision are irrelevant, since Padmapper isn't copying those.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#443

Post by icebraining »

rprasad wrote: post #401
icebraining wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read that link: the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compilation work such as a database must contain a minimum level of creativity in order to be protectable under the Copyright Act. The Supreme Court (...) held that Rural's white pages are not entitled to copyright protection, since the white pages did not meet the statutory requirement for originality under 17 U.S.C. §102(a). Cragslist is completely auto…

You're right, sweat of the brow is irrelevant, which is why it is irrelevant that their process is now automated . The copyrightable aspects are in the collection, selection, and presentation of data, which is not required by law to be performed manually.

It's relevant because it requires creativity; it's not automatically ruled out, but it makes it harder to claim.

In any case, Craigslist is completely unoriginal in its selection and arrangement of the data; the selection is "whatever people submit" and the arrangement is LIFO. I find it very hard to believe they'll be awarded copyright over it.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#444

Post by astrodust »

usaar333 wrote: post #327
astrodust wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sourceforge looked impossible to displace and yet GitHub happened. I can't wait for the same thing to happen to Craigslist.

Why was Sourceforge so tough to displace, aside from no one having the will to do it? Craigslist controls a two-sided market. If I build a new site, I can't get buyers without there already being sellers. And vice-versa. That's an incredibly difficult business problem. Github seems to have had it easier. I can just host my new project on github and be done with it (my website links to it after all). I'm sure sourcefo…

To deconstruct the SourceForge decline, which felt as painfully slow as the glacially slow erosion of IE 6 market share, it's important to recognize it in context.

SourceForge and its related properties were the backbone of the early web, supporting a number of important efforts to which people felt a strong allegiance. It was like a benevolent force at the time.

SourceForge had, at the time, a fairly formal process for registration. They considered themselves more like a library where getting shelf space was a privilege not doled out lightly. This is not unlike how getting into the Yahoo! directory required a lot of begging and pleading.

While this meant that most of the projects hosted by it had a lot of merit, those lesser efforts were left out in the cold. They failed to switch to a more casual model as the "Web 2.0" philosophy started being the dominant mind-set, where expectations shifted dramatically from carefully curated content to emergent user-driven communities.

Also worth noting, GitHub's pace of innovation is so far beyond nearly anything else in the industry that it was only a matter of time before they became the superior platform in terms of technology.

Additionally they were able to ride the surge of popularity that git was gaining, something that SourceForge didn't support at the time, and persuaded a number of high-profile projects to move to them. The real coup was Ruby on Rails, which once hosted there, solidified their position.

Any Craiglist displacer would need to swing a few important, strategic deals to cement it in the minds of people as a reasonable alternative. The rest would be a case of just driving harder than Craiglist is willing to keep up with.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#445

Post by cwp »

runako wrote: post #420
cwp wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright doesn't apply to data. Only the text posted to CL is protected, and Padmapper isn't using that.

I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps you are, and you are certain that the facts of the complaint will be grounds for summary dismissal. My limited legal knowledge leads me to believe this will not happen, which would mean that Padmapper is going to bleed money, time, and energy until the case is resolved. That was my main point; it's fairly useless for non-attorneys to argue legal cases on HN (my apologies if you're a lawyer a…

No, you're right. I'm not a lawyer either, and Padmapper is definitely in a tough position. I'm mostly arguing against the characterization of Padmapper as "stealing content." Most people here seem to think that Padmapper is in the wrong and it's only a question of whether they can get away with it.

AFAICT, Padmapper is doing something very much in line with what journalists and search engines have traditionally done. That point of view may not prevail in court, but I think it's completely defensible on ethical grounds.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#446

Post by Goronmon »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #381
Goronmon wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and can't stand the UX, then don't use the site. Nobody is forcing you to search for an apartment on CL. Nobody is forcing owners to list apartments on CL. Apartments aren't a fungible item. If I'm looking for an apartment in a certain area and 75% of the apartments in that area are only being listed on Craigslist, then how can I realistically "choose" to use another ave…

I think you are looking at this backwards. How many listings are there on Craigslist for a given city? 100, 200, 500, 1000? (I know city dependent) There is absolutely no reason that PadMapper cannot call them on the phone, and ask them to list with PadMapper. They can make it trivially easy supporting email, phone, or fax listings. They can sell them on using PadMapper. Many apartments are owned by Real Estate Inves…

That wasn't "lock in" it was an opportunity, they sold these folks on lower costs (since Classifieds were a money fund for newspapers) Landlords hated the extortionate prices that the newspapers charged but they didn't have an alternative, Craigslist gave them that alternative, they moved.

But you are using an example in which there was a clear downside to using the existing listing model. The price. If you are a landlord and you have no problem renting out apartments in a reasonable amount of time on Craigslist, and it's free, what exactly can another site offer that is "better"?

They are already getting their apartments rented, there is minimal overhead to using Craigslist. You can't compete with Craigslist on price, unless you are actually giving landlords money for listing on your site. And trying to say "It's easier for users to find your properties." doesn't help if they aren't having a problem with renting out their properties.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#447

Post by jahewson »

learc83 wrote: post #365
jahewson wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here I would really call this into question for the copyright claims. The key claim is copyright infringement, and the listings on Craigslist are almost certainly unprotected, much like telephone directory listings. They are statements of fact rather than creative works. Craigslist may attempt to claim copyright over reproduction of their database as a whole (compilati…

>The breach of contract claims may be stronger though. The pages on the Google cache presumably still contain the ToS Would this work? Can a phonebook just put a section at the beginning of this page that by reading this book you are agreeing to the ToS which state you can't copy it? I know most ToS contain a section about by using this service you are agreeing to the ToS. But I think there is a good argument that Pa…

Would it work? Well, web pages are cached by ISPs all the time. The nature of the internet is that data is buffered all over the place. The argument seems to be that because the data has been at rest for a few days, the ToS no longer applies - this seems like a fairly weak argument, but who knows.

As for phone books, a shrink-wrap license on a CD-ROM phone book which prohibited copying was upheld by the US courts (ProCD), so that copying was a breach of contract even though the underlying data was unprotected.

> PadMapper isn't actually 'using' the service.

Using is a wonderfully subjective word, and I'd expect accesing, and making use of to be acceptable synonyms.

> I've said before though that Craigslist could invent fictitious entries, and sue Padmapper for copying those creative works, just like mapmakers do with fake towns.

These are known as "trap streets" and US federal court has ruled that they are not protectable. Map makers are able to sue because the rest of their map is protectable; the trap streets simply catch the infringer red-handed.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#449

Post by paulschreiber »

colinsidoti wrote: post #432
juiceandjuice wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think of Padmapper, I think of the naughtiness: "Though the most successful founders are usually good people, they tend to have a piratical gleam in their eye. They're not Goody Two-Shoes type good. Morally, they care about getting the big questions right, but not about observing proprieties. That's why I'd use the word naughty rather than evil. They delight in breaking rules, but not rules that matter. This q…

Naughtiness was using CL to seed their site in the first place. After the Cease and Desist, using 3Taps as a source CL data was simply walking into a lawsuit. Generally, I don't think you want your naughtiness to tie you up in a legal battle.

If CL doesn't want this to happen, all they need to do is add and we're done.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#450

Post by ceejayoz »

scotty79 wrote: post #361
ceejayoz wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can't make me agree by presenting me with checkbox. They can't prevent me from using their interface if I don't agree. False. From the EFF: https://www.eff.org/wp/clicks-bind-ways-users-agree-online-t... > Given the emphasis placed on a user’s assent, courts favor finding a binding agreement where the user engages in affirmative conduct acknowledging the terms of a TOS. For instance, a genuine clickwrap agreem…

You talk about law. American law to be precise. I talk about physics. They can't even prove it was I that checked the checkbox.

Try using that argument in a court and they'll laugh.
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