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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#361

Post by scotty79 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #315
scotty79 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a public interface. I'm using it without agreeing to anything. They can't make me agree by presenting me with checkbox. They can't prevent me from using their interface if I don't agree. On the other hand I can't make them actually publish the information I entered or keep them to their word on anything they declare. It's not what lawers like but that's how internet works.

> They can't make me agree by presenting me with checkbox. They can't prevent me from using their interface if I don't agree. False. From the EFF: https://www.eff.org/wp/clicks-bind-ways-users-agree-online-t... > Given the emphasis placed on a user’s assent, courts favor finding a binding agreement where the user engages in affirmative conduct acknowledging the terms of a TOS. For instance, a genuine clickwrap agreem…

You talk about law. American law to be precise. I talk about physics. They can't even prove it was I that checked the checkbox.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#362

Post by hollerith »

mnicole wrote: post #299
eli wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. And if you want your data to be reposted on another site, then you should repost it. Craigslist is delivering exactly what it its users signed up for (no more no less). People posting ads on Craigslist do not necessarily want or intend for it to be reposted on other sites.

> And if you want your data to be reposted on another site, then you should repost it. I had to giggle a little bit at this in the grand scheme of the internet, sorry. When I posted something on Facebook Marketplace, I started getting emails and comments from other "market" sites that Facebook had cross-posted my listing to. While it was annoying to not know this up front, the fact that it was more visible and gettin…

In response to your "only helped": on one of the other Padmapper stories here on HN, someone wrote that after their item sold and they cancelled the Craigslist ad, they continued to get contacted about the item because third parties had scraped the ad and did not stop displaying their copy when the ad disappeared from Craigslist.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#363

Post by learc83 »

lobotryas wrote: post #185
learc83 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This isn't surprising of course, it is their data after all, But that's the thing. It isn't their data. They specifically say so in their TOS. The copyright belongs to the user. You can't say the listing belongs to the user (to protect you from liability) on one hand, and then say the data belongs to craigslist on the other. They could always do what map companies have done forever to prevent copyright. Facts can't…

The individual posts belong to the users, that is true. However one post alone is worthless. What's valuable is Craigslist's collection of posts with lots of relevant data (location, description, price, etc). This collection belongs to Craigslist because their servers provide the environment for it, plus they wrote the architecture and back-end to support it.

See my answer to mikeryan's post above for information on why that is not necessarily the case. An individual phone number is worthless as well, the collection is valuable. But case law says a phonebook isn't covered by copyright.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#364

Post by DanBlake »

jahewson wrote: post #357
pg wrote: post #210

Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed: http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist…

Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here I would really call this into question for the copyright claims. The key claim is copyright infringement, and the listings on Craigslist are almost certainly unprotected, much like telephone directory listings. They are statements of fact rather than creative works. Craigslist may attempt to claim copyright over reproduction of their database as a whole (compilati…

Another thought is that padmapper is not /copying/ the data - They are summarizing it.

So there could be a entire listing for a SF apartment with lots of details and padmapper would not copy any of it- instead they would just make notes - 3 bedroom, location, price, pictures and then link back to CL if someone clicks the listing on PM

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#365

Post by learc83 »

jahewson wrote: post #357
pg wrote: post #210

Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed: http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist…

Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here I would really call this into question for the copyright claims. The key claim is copyright infringement, and the listings on Craigslist are almost certainly unprotected, much like telephone directory listings. They are statements of fact rather than creative works. Craigslist may attempt to claim copyright over reproduction of their database as a whole (compilati…

>The breach of contract claims may be stronger though. The pages on the Google cache presumably still contain the ToS

Would this work? Can a phonebook just put a section at the beginning of this page that by reading this book you are agreeing to the ToS which state you can't copy it?

I know most ToS contain a section about by using this service you are agreeing to the ToS.

But I think there is a good argument that Padmapper isn't actual using the service since they aren't getting the information from Craigslist's servers.

Am I using a service, and thus bound by contract if I look at a screengrab of a website on a third party website (that contains a ToS).

I've said before though that Craigslist could invent fictitious entries, and sue Padmapper for copying those creative works, just like mapmakers do with fake towns.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#366

Post by res0nat0r »

pg wrote: post #306
eli wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. And if you want your data to be reposted on another site, then you should repost it. Craigslist is delivering exactly what it its users signed up for (no more no less). People posting ads on Craigslist do not necessarily want or intend for it to be reposted on other sites.

"People posting ads on Craigslist do not necessarily want or intend for it to be reposted on other sites." That argument appears to be invalidated by Craiglist's own terms of use, which say that when you upload a listing to Craigslist they can syndicate it wherever they want ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4287519 ).

The key point is that the TOS says that you grant Craigslist the right to redistribute your listing where ever they see fit, it doesn't say some third party entity has the right to do that.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#367

Post by meric »

Zakuzaa wrote: post #302
pg wrote: post #210

Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed: http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist…

I have heard people saying "we love competition". I wonder if they really mean it. Not saying one cant't love competition, just that the phrase is used so commonly that it's hard to digest. I, for one, hate my competitors. Basic insticts perhaps? Is not disliking your competitors something that is practiced by majority? OR is it at least very common? Common enough to point at a company that doesn't follow it?

It depends; If you are trying to start a new industry, you'd like your competitors more, because they validate the market. My university lecturer told me in the 90's (or 80's) he was starting a bottled water company; Back then no one drinks bottled water. Every month or so the half dozen bottle water company startups in Australia have a meet up; and they were all friends.

Hmm, sounds familiar...

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#368

Post by learc83 »

debacle wrote: post #308
warfangle wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You automatically grant and assign to CL, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant and assign to CL, a perpetual, irrevocable, unlimited, fully paid, fully sub-licensable (through multiple tiers), worldwide license to copy, perform, display, distribute, prepare derivative works from (including, without limitation, incorporating into other works) and otherwise use any content that you post. You…

Hadn't actually dug into the ToS, but the bit: > You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distribution... Seems to be vital to this case.

Rightshaven (copyright troll) was granted the same right by the copyright holders they represent, yet the judge ruled they didn't have standing to sue on the copyright holder's behalf.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#369

Post by cwp »

danielweber wrote: post #333
cwp wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Padmapper doesn't infringe copyrights either. edit: Ok, I won't be so cryptic. Padmapper doesn't copy the posts on Craigslist, they link to them. That's not a semantic quibble. All search engines do so. If I blogged that I was renting my apartment and linked to the Craigslist post describing it, I would be doing exactly what Padmapper is doing.

I think there is a significant difference between copying data, and just giving pointers to CL's data. However, If I blogged that I was renting my apartment and linked to the Craigslist post describing it, I would be doing exactly what Padmapper is doing. This doesn't line up in a few ways. Padmapper is a third-party, not the original poster. There is also a distinction between doing it as a one-off and doing it in a…

If linking without permission is problematic, Hacker News is in real trouble. So is just about every blog and news site on the web.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#370

Post by learc83 »

jacoblyles wrote: post #344
ttran4 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist is a business. What makes it right for another company to profit from the contents they generated through the platform that they build? Yes, they got an early advantage into the market and has the critical mass that many company can seem to compete with but why take that away from them because they refuse to update/add new features. Instead of piggybacking on them and relying on their data to earn money, s…

Craigslist is a business. And a monopoly, like Microsoft in the 90s. Didn't they have the right to decide which browsers are packaged with their OS? Don't they even have the right to decide which browsers run on their OS?

Exactly, they've pretty much run every newspaper classified out of business. Consumers have no choice but to do business with craigslist if they want to list something in a classified.
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