Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#51

Post by cubano » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:16 PM UTC

I find it almost completely mind boggling that with all the breathless new coverage on the "incredible shortage of qualified tower personnel", I have yet to hear even one mention of what I find to be the elephant in the room.

Uhhh...why not use AI to start controlling the airports and airplanes? Talk about an app that, to me at least, seems an almost trivial use of its abilities and I'm sure that an AI could be trained in a very short period of time that could outperform a roomful of overaged, distracted humans...right?

Yes of course there is no way I'm the first to think of this...but just the fact that here it is day 3 or so, and literally NOT ONE MENTION ANYWHERE in the media about the potential for AI to safely land and direct all these flying things.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#52

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:17 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18

jfengel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's not always that simple, but sometimes it is. Not everyone could do it, but a lot of people could. You just have to pay them to attract them from more lucrative jobs (which includes training them to do it). Instead they'll pay as little as they can, and occasionally pay to replace an aircraft.

> They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's really not that simple. It's a 3-year training process. There's really nothing that's going to get you adequately staffed in the short term. Sure, that could solve the problem medium term.

[deleted]

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#53

Post by taeric » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

hooo wrote: post #25

nradov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is being modernized through the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). This will take decades and a huge amount of funding. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen They accept public comments so all of the armchair aviation experts on HN should probably send them an email and explain how they can solve all the problems by connecting ChatGPT to a controller console.

Why does it have to take decades? That sounds insane

To modernize a running system, you have to duplicate everything so that you can someday do a switchover.

For commerce tech, you switch, see what breaks, switch back and adjust for next try. You may have lost some sales. But probably just inconvenienced people.

When doing travel systems, something breaking is likely a lot of deaths.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#54

Post by MichaelZuo » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

hooo wrote: post #25

nradov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is being modernized through the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). This will take decades and a huge amount of funding. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen They accept public comments so all of the armchair aviation experts on HN should probably send them an email and explain how they can solve all the problems by connecting ChatGPT to a controller console.

Why does it have to take decades? That sounds insane

Have you read the various reports that are available right there on the web page?

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#55

Post by rayiner » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #42

perihelions wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's topical for understanding the makeup of ATC controllers right now, isn't it? The impact of hiring decisions in 2018 would continue through their retirement age in the 2050's. We still talk about Reagan's mass-firing of ATC controllers, and that event was in *1981*. The impact is multi-generational and is still very visible.

Not necessarily. In the reparations lawsuit, there are only 1000ish individuals. Assuming all of them would have qualified, you are talking about around 2% of the current workforce. Not nothing. But the last admin grew the workforce by more numbers. And did not have this policy. So, by all means, chase reparations. But don't think you've stumbled on the reason, either.

What makes you think this wasn’t indicative of how the agency was run?

The test was shut down because it was obvious and egregious: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-.... But the people who designed it didn’t resign.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#56

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

hooo wrote: post #25

nradov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is being modernized through the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). This will take decades and a huge amount of funding. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen They accept public comments so all of the armchair aviation experts on HN should probably send them an email and explain how they can solve all the problems by connecting ChatGPT to a controller console.

Why does it have to take decades? That sounds insane

A wide variety of decades-old aircraft, and even newer aircraft are often modernized versions of ancient aircraft models. All of them built and operated with the motto "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", because every change brings risk (and costs money).

There was also a lot of resistance to the idea that every aircraft should broadcast its position, heading, etc. because of privacy concerns. And as long as there are holdouts the tower can't rely on the information being available

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#57

Post by 9283409232 » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

blantonl wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned in the past few days, acutely so, is that the vast majority of people do not understand the sheer complexity of what it takes to have an aviation industry.

People don't understand the complexity of anything and why it cost so much, including the moron trying to make cuts.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#58

Post by hkpack » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:19 PM UTC

hooo wrote: post #25

nradov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is being modernized through the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). This will take decades and a huge amount of funding. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen They accept public comments so all of the armchair aviation experts on HN should probably send them an email and explain how they can solve all the problems by connecting ChatGPT to a controller console.

Why does it have to take decades? That sounds insane

Large infrastructure projects always take decades.

Look at the railroad development in EU for example. You have to invent a lot of tech (signaling, communication between trains, interoperability with old systems), build a lot of infrastructure, train a lot of people and roll it out at scale with the goal of zero accidents.

It is just impossible to do quickly.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#59

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:19 PM UTC

cubano wrote: post #51

I find it almost completely mind boggling that with all the breathless new coverage on the "incredible shortage of qualified tower personnel", I have yet to hear even one mention of what I find to be the elephant in the room. Uhhh...why not use AI to start controlling the airports and airplanes? Talk about an app that, to me at least, seems an almost trivial use of its abilities and I'm sure that an AI could be train…

[deleted]

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#60

Post by jandrewrogers » Sat, Feb 01, 2025, 5:19 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #14

giantg2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you modernize the system (not just tech but potentially the procedures). Kind of stupid to increase air traffic and traffic density over decades and just expect the old systems to scale.

I'm not sure this is something that is solved by tech. It sounds like they simply don't have enough staff, whether that a budget problem or hiring problem IDK. The article mentions they have a 50% reduction in new hires which either says it's hard to be competent, the job is too demanding, or both. They had 1 tower with 1 operator and no redundancy at a fairly busy airport, which is definitely concerning.

This is a nearly perfect problem for tech. We solve and automate very similar problems in other contexts at scale but FAA is extremely conservative about tech.