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Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

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Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#21

Post by wahnfrieden »

jfengel wrote: post #7
sylware wrote: post #3

If they are understaff (namely giga honest, super solid competent people for air traffic ground control), you have to reduce air traffic as it is way too dangerous. For this kind of staff, it is not just a matter of "training", it is way more demanding.

They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's not always that simple, but sometimes it is. Not everyone could do it, but a lot of people could. You just have to pay them to attract them from more lucrative jobs (which includes training them to do it). Instead they'll pay as little as they can, and occasionally pay to replace an aircraft.

The ones with the money and power to fix this fly private out of other airports and aren't as directly exposed to the risks of their profit-making

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#22

Post by fzeroracer »

giantg2 wrote: post #5
sylware wrote: post #3

If they are understaff (namely giga honest, super solid competent people for air traffic ground control), you have to reduce air traffic as it is way too dangerous. For this kind of staff, it is not just a matter of "training", it is way more demanding.

Or you modernize the system (not just tech but potentially the procedures). Kind of stupid to increase air traffic and traffic density over decades and just expect the old systems to scale.

Modernize the system how? Like do you have explicit steps on how to modernize it and what needs to be done?

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#23

Post by perihelions »

n1b0m wrote: post #4
tomohawk wrote: post #2

Hundreds of qualified applicants were denied jobs through a "Biographical Assessment" that you can take yourself: https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/ Spend a bit of time taking it and it's clear what at least one reason for this shortage is.

It was dropped in 2018

Then it's topical for understanding the makeup of ATC controllers right now, isn't it? The impact of hiring decisions in 2018 would continue through their retirement age in the 2050's.

We still talk about Reagan's mass-firing of ATC controllers, and that event was in *1981*. The impact is multi-generational and is still very visible.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#24

Post by nradov »

giantg2 wrote: post #5
sylware wrote: post #3

If they are understaff (namely giga honest, super solid competent people for air traffic ground control), you have to reduce air traffic as it is way too dangerous. For this kind of staff, it is not just a matter of "training", it is way more demanding.

Or you modernize the system (not just tech but potentially the procedures). Kind of stupid to increase air traffic and traffic density over decades and just expect the old systems to scale.

It is being modernized through the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). This will take decades and a huge amount of funding.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen

They accept public comments so all of the armchair aviation experts on HN should probably send them an email and explain how they can solve all the problems by connecting ChatGPT to a controller console.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#25

Post by hooo »

nradov wrote: post #24
giantg2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you modernize the system (not just tech but potentially the procedures). Kind of stupid to increase air traffic and traffic density over decades and just expect the old systems to scale.

It is being modernized through the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). This will take decades and a huge amount of funding. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen They accept public comments so all of the armchair aviation experts on HN should probably send them an email and explain how they can solve all the problems by connecting ChatGPT to a controller console.

Why does it have to take decades? That sounds insane

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#26

Post by krapp »

jfengel wrote: post #7
sylware wrote: post #3

If they are understaff (namely giga honest, super solid competent people for air traffic ground control), you have to reduce air traffic as it is way too dangerous. For this kind of staff, it is not just a matter of "training", it is way more demanding.

They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's not always that simple, but sometimes it is. Not everyone could do it, but a lot of people could. You just have to pay them to attract them from more lucrative jobs (which includes training them to do it). Instead they'll pay as little as they can, and occasionally pay to replace an aircraft.

>Raise pay until you have enough staff.

That's never going to happen. Americans have reached the "drown it in a bathtub" phase of their contempt for government. All of the air traffic controllers will be replaced by ChatGPT agents before more are hired, much less paid a cent more. And if the planes crash, they crash.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#27

Post by Avicebron »

giantg2 wrote: post #13
Avicebron wrote: post #6

Ok? So we have tons of US citizens who want to be in high-skilled high-paying professions, bring more people into training programs and staff them? I assume people working high skilled high wage professions spend more on things like housing and food and other things -> economy boost. Where is the hangup?

Why would I be an ATC, the fourth most stressful job in the nation, when I could have better working conditions and/or pay in a number of other professions?

Well we look at it objectively (as a country whatever) and say, hey, here is a pain point with potential for engineering excellence. And then engineer our way to a place of superiority. Basically mandate that the cost of air travel/traffic (for EVERYTHING) is calibrated to be able to support the infrastructure it relies on? Top heavy corporate structures (aka cutting corners for profit) pretty much only ends one way and that's with people dying.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#28

Post by mbreese »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18
jfengel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's not always that simple, but sometimes it is. Not everyone could do it, but a lot of people could. You just have to pay them to attract them from more lucrative jobs (which includes training them to do it). Instead they'll pay as little as they can, and occasionally pay to replace an aircraft.

> They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's really not that simple. It's a 3-year training process. There's really nothing that's going to get you adequately staffed in the short term. Sure, that could solve the problem medium term.

I think you’ve found the root issue. There is no short term fix. And our current governmental setup isn’t capable of handling medium to long term problems. It has been this way for quite a while, so this issue isn’t new.

Long-term political will isn’t there, so if the problem can’t be fixed quickly, it’s as if there is no possible solution.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#29

Post by tczMUFlmoNk »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18
jfengel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's not always that simple, but sometimes it is. Not everyone could do it, but a lot of people could. You just have to pay them to attract them from more lucrative jobs (which includes training them to do it). Instead they'll pay as little as they can, and occasionally pay to replace an aircraft.

> They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's really not that simple. It's a 3-year training process. There's really nothing that's going to get you adequately staffed in the short term. Sure, that could solve the problem medium term.

The set of active controllers isn't static: people come and people go. If you raise pay right now, current, skilled controllers will be more inclined to stay, while new controllers who've been training for the last 2.9 years join. Raising pay helps combat attrition, which increases the population.
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