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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

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Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#221

Post by unavoidable »

nhebb wrote: post #216
nostromo wrote: post #60

Commenters here make this sound like an open and shut case in favor of Craigslist. IANAL, so could someone explain why Google's index of material covered by copyright is ok and PadMapper's is not?

I don't know if it's open and shut either - but not because of the search analogy. That's covered in the CL ToS, sections 3 and 5. ( http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use ) My problem is with section 3. CONTENT AND CONDUCT, part a, where they first state "CL does not control, is not responsible for and makes no representations or warranties with respect to any user content." Then it goes on to state that poste…

This is where the lawsuit gets _legally_ interesting. Craigslist can't really claim copyright over the listings themselves (see post above), but they can certainly restrict user rights through their terms of use (which is a contract). Generally, contracts can be used to reduce a set of rights a person has against another (e.g. waivers), but it cannot grant rights that they did not have in the first place.

So the first part of that statement is akin to waiver, so that someone can't sue CL for what the listings say. The second part is a claim on copyright and licensing, which they may or may not have.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#222

Post by scotty79 »

res0nat0r wrote: post #205
ataggart wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds)…

No they don't. They just have to check the stupid checbox that doesn't do anything because otherwise they can't post advertisment they wrote. I'd say cheking this checkbox is coerced. Also you may check it witout reading what's written next to it.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#223

Post by Ralith »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #186
learc83 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This isn't surprising of course, it is their data after all, But that's the thing. It isn't their data. They specifically say so in their TOS. The copyright belongs to the user. You can't say the listing belongs to the user (to protect you from liability) on one hand, and then say the data belongs to craigslist on the other. They could always do what map companies have done forever to prevent copyright. Facts can't…

I hear you, but I don't know if the courts will agree with your interpretation. The reason for that is that the courts will look at the consequence of having that interpretation widely accepted and the impact on the current state of affairs. There are many many places where this has been litigated and the courts always come down on the side of the data aggregator owning rights to the data aggregated. If PadMapper wan…

> I am trying to move people from Google to a new search service

Care to share? I've been trying to move away from google, but DuckDuckGo's search results are so often massively inferior. Other suggestions would be nice to have!

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#224

Post by sulife »

pg wrote: post #210

Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed: http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist…

Just like they try to keep the facade up that CL barely makes money. They are swimming in so much $ it's insane.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#225

Post by scotty79 »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #146
icebraining wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Craigslist data, it's the users'. They just have a license. /pedant

Great. Have the users provided a license to PadMapper? Where is this license agreement? How is it made?

They provide the license to everyone to spread the word that they have apartment for sale by default. It's more resonable to assume that than anything else.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#226

Post by ceejayoz »

scotty79 wrote: post #222
res0nat0r wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds)…

No they don't. They just have to check the stupid checbox that doesn't do anything because otherwise they can't post advertisment they wrote. I'd say cheking this checkbox is coerced. Also you may check it witout reading what's written next to it.

Posting to Craigslist isn't a Constitutional right. Don't agree with the terms? Don't post there. No one's coercing.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#228

Post by user49598 »

A few of humble opinions:

Padmapper is probably getting enough publicity out of this to get over the critical mass problem and will be able to rely on their own listings.

Craigslist content is user generated, and the copyrights remain property of the users. While facts aren't copyrightable anything that padmapper displays that isn't just a fact, photos or a realtor's description for example, is a copyright violation.

This is why sites like stack overflow are awesome, because they licence "their" content, aka your work cc-wiki and claim no ownership.

The bummer here is not that craigslist is suing over unauthorized data access, it's that your work is too restrictively licenced on their site to be of maximum benefit to you.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#229

Post by adunsmoor »

ataggart wrote: post #184
Maascamp wrote: post #43

The tone in this article is unbelievable. > The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data . The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a com…

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using th…

Even if you go with the "it's not their data" argument Craigslist would seem to own the specific compilation of the data. I'd apply the same copyright principle as phone books or encyclopedias.

http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html

Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate.

Re: Craigslist Suing Padmapper

#230

Post by Flimm »

kytmizuno wrote: post #129
rprasad wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craiglist doesn't need to write those posts. Under their TOS, Craiglist has a license to the posts (which are copyrighted by their owners ). This license gives Craiglist the authority to enforce copyright against persons who interfere with Craigslists' license in the posts. Thus, the last sentence of their TOS is perfectly legal and enforceable. The license would not give Craiglist a license to do anything to other s…

From what I've read, only the actual copyright holder has the right to sue others for copyright infringement. See the Righthaven case from last year. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/righthaven-copyri...

They are plenty of cases where copyright enforcement is voluntarily handed over to a third-party: for example, Hollywood to the MPAA, or the BusyBox developers to the SFLC. Does anyone know what the difference is?
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