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Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

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Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can certainly learn things like using gates, however they don't seem to have a concept of object permanence. If they go to the other side of the fence and do not find the ball, they will tend to begin a spiraling search for it, rather than concentrate on where the ball logically should be if you tracked the trajectory of it and formed a concept of where it went even after it left your sight.

Dogs obviously have a concept of object permanence, since they know to go around the fence to look for a ball in the first place. They wouldn't look for it once it's left their sight around a fence otherwise. That they're confused if they cannot immediately find the ball only shows that they struggle to calculate arcs, which many humans also do.

And for anyone with a particularly intelligent but ball obsessed breed of dog you can ask them to get the ball so you can play and they’ll go from the front of the house around the back to pick it up off the top shelf in the shed where you placed it (but forgot yourself, but they remembered) and bring it to you.

I absolutely assure you: My border collie knows at all times where the ball is. There’s zero question of object permanance.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#42
post #10

Hmm, I'm not that sure. I did a month of quiet Yoga (no talking whatsoever) and brought my dog with me for the ride. I came to realize that the words are mostly there to help me, she doesn't care. If I switch the word and say it with the same energy/body language, the result is the same. I don't even need words anymore, body language is more effective with my dog.

The researchers aimed to rule out variables such as a dog responding to their owner's cues — like, the owner putting on shoes to go outside — the identity of the human saying the word, or memorizing the location of buttons on the board.

John W. Pilley conducted investigations involving his border collie named Chaser. Chaser had ~200 or so toys, each with a unique name; if Pilley asked her to fetch a toy by name, she would reliably find the corresponding toy out of a pile of all of them and bring it back. Pilley found that when Chaser was asked to fetch a toy whose name Chaser hadn't heard, Chaser would find the new toy she hadn't seen before in the pile and bring it back. He controlled for cues like face and body language by sitting still with his back to Chaser while giving the commands, so that he could neither see the toy being fetched nor unconsciously signal to Chaser.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaser_(dog)

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#43

So where are all the people who apparently think that pets can't understand basic vocabulary? It's treated like some wild revelation when it comes up in articles like this, but anyone who's ever had a dog or cat knows what the reactions are like when words like "walk" or "bath" or "tuna" get mentioned. For particularly attentive dogs you can even end up with the euphemism treadmill from "walk" to "W-A-L-K" to substit…

This speaks to an interesting question that is extremely difficult to answer: "Can pets think conceptually?" A word like "table", to a human, does not represent a concrete. It represents an abstraction, ALL tables, all things that have a flat surface and four legs. When a dog hears "table", or "walk", do they understand the abstract concept of walking, or tables in general? Or do they interpret it as a very specific,…

What would it even mean in practice for them to think about concrete "walking" instead of the abstract concept? Verbs are inherently abstract.

When I was with my dog in my parents' house and said "spacer" (walk in Polish) - he was happy and jumped around in anticipation, bringing the leash. He did the same in my grandparents house even though we weren't going to the same place - he just wanted to go on a walk doesn't matter the area. What's your explanation that does not involve abstracting the action from the concrete area and time?

Another example - my sister trained our other dog to bring her plush toys on command. She hidden them in house and said "szukaj" (search) and then rewarded the dog with a clicker and/or a treat when the dog brought her the toy. It takes several steps (first you hide the toy very close and then you hide it outside of view). Also you reward the dog with the clicker on intermediate successes like getting the toy without bringing it to the owner.

Anyway - one time my sister lost one glove when we were on a walk with that dog. She noticed only when we were returning from the fields. She gave the dog the other glove to sniff and said "szukaj". Ciri (our dog) went back a few hundred meters searching for the glove and found it and brought it back.

There are smarter and dumber dogs (Ciri was probably the smartest dogs we ever had) - but the ability to generalize and reason is obviously there. Like - I can't imagine an unbiased scientist having a dog for extended period of time and not seeing it.

Dogs also have theory of mind (I've seen Ciri bury a bone in one place, wait for our other dog - Jaskier - to go home, and rebury it elsewhere).

Dogs also know which things are forbidden, and know that the things that are forbidden - aren't forbidden when nobody's there to see them do it :)

We also had a pretty aggressive dog before that - Kuba - which used to pursue neighbors cat when it came to our backyard. The backyard was fenced, and when the cat could see our dog - he wouldn't come. So our dog pretended to be asleep or hidden and waited for the cat to come, then he pursued it up a tree and waited under the tree till we came to free the cat.

This requires reasoning. It shouldn't be surprising - these are social animals that hunt in packs, cooperate, play pack politics, and need to reason about others in their pack and about the prey. How would they survive as a species if they had to invent pack tactics from scratch every time they hunted? Obviously they can generalize.

I find most of these arguments against animals thinking either incredibly naive or biased. Like some people actually argue dogs are "meat automatons" with no capacity to think whatsoever. It's like fishers saying fish can't feel pain :/

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#44
post #36

On the one hand, people put a lot of meaning behind things that may not have it. On the other hand, I can tell one of my dogs which room my wife is in and he'll go directly to that room to get her. My house isn't small, either. I didn't specifically train him to do that, and it doesn't even come up that often, so I don't actually know why it works.

Yeah. Dogs. It’s incredible how they can be both incredibly stupid and incredibly smart altogether.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#45
post #9

There really are all the ingredients out there for the creation of an animal-human communication model. Except maybe money and will.

People spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars on their pets. I'm sure a company will come along to try and make one because holy shit you'd make a lot of money selling the app that lets your pet talk to you.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#46
Do we have blind confirmation? As in, do the dogs carry out volleys with people that don't know them? Dogs could be picking up body language, pheromones, and other signals rather than comprehending; without, this could be the old vaudeville act of the counting horse that stops tapping when the owner reacts.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#47
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What blew my mind was when one of the first dogs to use buttons was confronted with her "beach" button being broken. She started using the phrase "outside-water" to compensate for being unable to say "beach". This is like when Alex the parrot was confronted with an apple for the first time and called it a "banerry", using the names of fruits he knew (banana and cherry). The ability not just to use words, but form ori…

"What blew my mind was when one of the first dogs to use buttons was confronted with her "beach" button being broken. She started using the phrase "outside-water" to compensate for being unable to say "beach"." This is actually something that the skeptics should address when they claim that all that button pushing is just simple conditioning. Spontaneously creating a logically sound approximation for a broken button…

I think it is rather up to those making the claims to show that these stories are more than just selection bias.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What blew my mind was when one of the first dogs to use buttons was confronted with her "beach" button being broken. She started using the phrase "outside-water" to compensate for being unable to say "beach"." This is actually something that the skeptics should address when they claim that all that button pushing is just simple conditioning. Spontaneously creating a logically sound approximation for a broken button…

I think it is rather up to those making the claims to show that these stories are more than just selection bias.

How should such a study even look like?

I mean, some people are perfectly fine with labeling other people NPCs.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#49

So where are all the people who apparently think that pets can't understand basic vocabulary? It's treated like some wild revelation when it comes up in articles like this, but anyone who's ever had a dog or cat knows what the reactions are like when words like "walk" or "bath" or "tuna" get mentioned. For particularly attentive dogs you can even end up with the euphemism treadmill from "walk" to "W-A-L-K" to substit…

Lots of people think animals are dumb beasts. My neighbor threw a party with a bunch of people in his PhD program. Our dogs hang out and we left the gate open between our properties so the dogs could go back and forth. One of the PhD students was amazed that if you threw a ball over the fence the dog knew how to go around the fence and through the gate to get the ball.

A friend of mine had a dog (Rover) that was half dingo. Dang, was he smart. But if he was on a rope attached to a tree, and wound around the tree, he could not figure out that he needed to run the other direction to unwind the rope.

When he went on vacation, he asked if I could walk Rover once a day, I said sure. Rover reveled in being the top dog in the neighborhood. One of his favorite methods to assert dominance was hilarious. We'd pass one yard that had a fence made from vertical planks butted against each other. The yard contained one of the beta dogs.

Rover found a knothole at just the right height, put his butt against it, and emptied through the hole into the beta dog's territory.

The beta dog went berserk. Rover literally pranced as we continued his walkies.

Re: Think your dog can understand words? This scientist says you might be right

#50
post #5

The author Mary Robinette Kowal has a cat, Elsie, who uses a button board. I’m reluctant to call it language exactly, but it is definitely a kind of communication. An example is here: https://www.instagram.com/p/C48uKZ8veql/ It’s interesting how words shift in meaning with the cat, so litterbox, for example, has come to be a word for anything unpleasant. Elsie also will come up with nicknames for people she encounter…

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