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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#461

Post by riantogo »

Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuff.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#462

Post by mistercheph »

thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

Not really, they just put their eye to where everyone knows the ball is going and publish fake / cherrypicked results and then pretend like they got there first (o1, gpt voice, sora)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#463

Post by taco_emoji »

daft_pink wrote: post #177

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail. AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and adv…

Main difference is that railroads are actually useful

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#464

Post by [deleted] »

bloomingkales wrote: post #144
stackghost wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I personally love this chef's kiss of a flip flop sam did here: https://blog.samaltman.com/trump https://www.reddit.com/r/YAPms/comments/1i7ry5m/sam_altman_g... Only a truly talented piece of shit can be as prolific as this. "He is irresponsible in the way dictators are." Chef's kiss. Edit: Kids, don't aspire to be like Altman. We as a community need to espouse more values than tech is gonna tech .

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#465

Post by 827a »

Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this.

That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-training a better model on top of their closed source model, then open sourcing it: That's more Robinhood than Villain I'd say.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#467

Post by rockemsockem »

riantogo wrote: post #461
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuf…

I think the prevailing narrative ATM is that DeepSeek's own innovation was done in isolation and they surpassed OpenAI. Even though in the paper they give a lot of credit to Llama for their techniques. The idea that they used o1's outputs for their distillation further shows that models like o1 are necessary.

All of this should have been clear anyway from the start, but that's the Internet for you.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#468

Post by cmiles74 »

buyucu wrote: post #454
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

I'm willing to bet ''ban DeepSeek'' voices will start soon. Why compete, when you can just ban?

They've started already, I've seen posts on LinkedIn implying or outright stating that DeepSeek is a national security risk (IMHO, LinkedIn being the social media outlet most corporate-sycophantic). I went ahead and just picked this one at random from my feed.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kevinkeller_deepseek-privacy-...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#469

Post by Hatchback7599 »

thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

Reminds me of the Bill Gates quote when Steve Jobs accused him of stealing the ideas of Windows from Mac:

Well, Steve... I think it’s more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it.

Xerox could be seen as Google, whose researchers produced the landmark Attention Is All You Need paper, and the general public, who provided all of the training data to make these models possible.

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