'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#111

Post by walterk » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 8:00 PM UTC

miked wrote: post #72

walterk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If, as a society, everyone is a "Value Creator", will we still require a government? If everyone created value by Rand's standards, were highly rational and reasonable, did not destroy value, and were otherwise law-abiding (or simply moral) citizens, then you might not need government, or at least a very minimal one. We're incredibly far off from such a world, however (assuming it's even possible), so we at least n…

>> In the United States, Gladwell is sad to report, cap rates are really low owing to poverty, stupidity, and culture. Yes, that would explain why we're one of the wealthiest societies that have ever existed. As for stupidity in our society: there are many Americans who like to publically preen with a statement of the form "In our culture, we are so " + . The clear intent is to make the speaker seem simultaneously kn…

There is preening, and there is criticism. Some combine both, and I agree, it's pretty silly.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#112

Post by aswanson » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 8:09 PM UTC

mmmurf wrote: post #105

davidw wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. If you read Rand in that spirit, it makes for an interesting point of view. The important thing is to avoid getting caught up in it and think that "Objectivism" is a sensible or even possible way of running the world. People are neither 100% collectivist oriented, nor 100% individual oriented, and going in either direction too far is to go against how we function (but please note that I'm not arguing for…

Your comment suggests that you believe the world needs to be "run" by a wise planner of some sort.

I didn't get that out of the comment. I read that as neither collectivism or objectivism is a completely flawless method, and we should take from each as the situation, rather than the ideology, dictates. I also read that as capitalism seems to have been obviously more successfull than communism, so solutions most often will be derived from objective philosophy.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#113

Post by olefoo » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 8:13 PM UTC

opticksversi wrote: post #109

olefoo wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please name the regulation that said that any bank had to give a loan to someone with No Income, No Job, No Assets? Please name the laws that are (you claim) still forcing banks to make loans to unqualified borrowers. Now I would agree that there were many failures of regulation in the mortgage industry; but if you are trying to claim that things like http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/title8.php forced banks into maki…

Racist shit To what, specifically, in his comment are you referring?

"""There are, in fact, laws that forced banks to give out loans to those people. Laws which have not been repealed. Entire non-profit groups making sure those laws were enforced, and who have not learned anything from what happened."""

Oddly enough, the original commenter does not actually name the laws that allow "those people" to get loans to the detriment of us all.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#114

Post by unalone » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 8:24 PM UTC

msg wrote: post #104

unalone wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not altruism if you benefit from the results. It was in Rand's best interests to influence as many people as possible, since she promotes a system of logic and selfishness to better people. If people subscribe to her theory of belief, she gains as much as they do.

Selfishness isn't selfishness if you lose something.

It's still selfish if you gain more for yourself than you lose.

What is Rand losing in this case?

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#115

Post by davidw » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 8:43 PM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #112

mmmurf wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment suggests that you believe the world needs to be "run" by a wise planner of some sort.

I didn't get that out of the comment. I read that as neither collectivism or objectivism is a completely flawless method, and we should take from each as the situation, rather than the ideology, dictates. I also read that as capitalism seems to have been obviously more successfull than communism, so solutions most often will be derived from objective philosophy.

Close: solutions will most often be derived from the real world (trial and error), and real economics, which says that capitalism is the best system, albeit an imperfect one, and therefore needs some tweaking now and then. How much and what tweaking is of course a matter of ongoing debate between reasonable people, and probably depends a lot on what various communities and peoples prefer. I.e. most people in Sweden are happy with a more collectivist version of capitalism, most people in the US are happier with another sort of system, and so on.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#116

Post by nazgulnarsil » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:33 PM UTC

walterk wrote: post #56

maxharris wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greenspan turned his back on Objectivism during the 70s.

He did? In what way? (Genuinely curious.) My understanding is that, despite some of his views being at odds with her own, Rand was happy to have him in her inner circle anyway.

he expanded the money supply in 1995 and again in 2000 in order to create growth. Since you can't create growth out of thin air these bubbles eventually burst. This is blatant Keynesian economics, the opposite of the free-market.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#117

Post by andreyf » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:34 PM UTC

bstadil wrote: post #40

Eliezer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He knows that; that's the joke.

I kind of suspected that but not sure plus most of the HN readers unlikely to know this somewhat obscure piece of information. Hence the comment.

Um, the rest of that paragraph is sarcastic, too, FYI...

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#118

Post by nazgulnarsil » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:36 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #83

jonny_noog wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If more of Rand's proponents were apparently aware of this fact that "things are more complex than she writes about" nor, might I add, are things as absolute, I would have less of a problem with Objectivism.

Yeah. The problem, which I still find sad, is that Rand's main message, above the stuff she writes about, is that you should always believe in objective reality, which means picking logic over dogma, and treating the world as a constantly-evolving thing that requires your own thought. Her followers throw out that message more often than not, and follow an incredibly dogmatic belief system that disregards logical stat…

such is the fate of any popular message. if you would see your ideals widely disseminated you must be prepared to have them so radically misinterpreted that people arrive at beliefs that are diametrically opposed to your original message.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#119

Post by andreyf » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:36 PM UTC

ellyagg wrote: post #30

jeeringmole wrote: post #2

Ah, yes.... The collectivists controlled the Presidency, the Senate, and the House of Representatives and used their power to regulate the credit derivatives market out of existence. How much better things would have been if the Chairman of the Federal Reserve had heard of Objectivism! Even the off-hand pop culture references are crapulous: "A Confederacy of Dunces" surely counts as a "classic novel of recent decades…

Don't understand your first sentence totally. You do admit that collectivists have controlled the Presidency and House and Senate for the last 8 years, yes? Bush, in particular, is no anti-collectivist. Some people get confused by labels, e.g., Republican, so I just want to make sure. Asset bubbles always happen. They probably always will happen. Now that the bubble is bursting, the collectivist mismanagement over th…

Don't understand your first sentence totally. You do admit...

Adjust your sarcasm detector.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#120

Post by nazgulnarsil » Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:38 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #115

aswanson wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't get that out of the comment. I read that as neither collectivism or objectivism is a completely flawless method, and we should take from each as the situation, rather than the ideology, dictates. I also read that as capitalism seems to have been obviously more successfull than communism, so solutions most often will be derived from objective philosophy.

Close: solutions will most often be derived from the real world (trial and error), and real economics, which says that capitalism is the best system, albeit an imperfect one, and therefore needs some tweaking now and then. How much and what tweaking is of course a matter of ongoing debate between reasonable people, and probably depends a lot on what various communities and peoples prefer. I.e. most people in Sweden a…

homogeneous societies have an easier time of running collectivist programs without incurring wrath of the populace. no one minds if tax dollars go to other people just like them.