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'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

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Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#71

Post by davidw »

ellyagg wrote: post #32
GavinB wrote: post #6

Absolutism: Simple. Satisfying. Wrong.

Well, you have to realize that up until Ayn Rand, the only popular absolutism was Marxism. People were pretty excited to have an absolutism that promoted striving for excellence rather than striving for grey sameness.

Good point. If you read Rand in that spirit, it makes for an interesting point of view. The important thing is to avoid getting caught up in it and think that "Objectivism" is a sensible or even possible way of running the world. People are neither 100% collectivist oriented, nor 100% individual oriented, and going in either direction too far is to go against how we function (but please note that I'm not arguing for splitting the difference right down the middle - obviously modern capitalist societies are far better than various attemps at communism).

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#72

Post by miked »

walterk wrote: post #50
ananthrk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Not trying to be rhetoric, but a honest question ever since I encountered Rand's works) If, as a society, everyone is a "Value Creator", will we still require a government? What would be the job of the government then? "gives a false sense of moral certainty derived from an elitist denial of social complexity" - what kind of complexity are we talking about here? Is it the reality that not everyone is a "Value Creato…

> If, as a society, everyone is a "Value Creator", will we still require a government? If everyone created value by Rand's standards, were highly rational and reasonable, did not destroy value, and were otherwise law-abiding (or simply moral) citizens, then you might not need government, or at least a very minimal one. We're incredibly far off from such a world, however (assuming it's even possible), so we at least n…

>> In the United States, Gladwell is sad to report, cap rates are really low owing to poverty, stupidity, and culture.

Yes, that would explain why we're one of the wealthiest societies that have ever existed.

As for stupidity in our society: there are many Americans who like to publically preen with a statement of the form "In our culture, we are so " + . The clear intent is to make the speaker seem simultaneously knowledgable enough about other cultures to make a fair comparison and slightly daring -- nay, a latter day Solzhenitsyn, such is one's daring.

That's not the stupid part, just boring vanity. The stupid part is those people who buy into it. Few of these people have ever lived in other societies (I've lived in two.)

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#73

Post by jonny_noog »

unalone wrote: post #61
gills wrote: post #9

I read this book for the first time, last summer. It was actually a little bit spooky -- OK, very spooky -- to read basically the same thing (metaphorically) in the book and the news most days of the week.

Very! I had the same experience when I read The Fountainhead for the first time, in the middle of an ego clash happening at my school. It's important, I've found, not to mistake Rand's works for wholesale reality. She makes some incredibly good points, and I love her concept of the virtue of selfishness, but things are more complex than she writes about. She was aware of this too: her books are deliberately overstate…

If more of Rand's proponents were apparently aware of this fact that "things are more complex than she writes about" nor, might I add, are things as absolute, I would have less of a problem with Objectivism.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#74

Post by jhancock »

unalone wrote: post #64
jhancock wrote: post #34

sometimes I won't click on a link simply because to do so may encourage writing more content of its nature. this is one of those times ;)

So you're saying that you think that closedmindedness on your part is a good way of stopping other people from discovering ideas? Even if those ideas are closedminded, you do better to critique the actual article rather than avoid it. Criticism is the quickest way to kill a bad idea.

uh no. I'm saying exactly what I said. And I disagree that criticism is the quickest way to kill an idea. I'm not out to :kill: ;).

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#75

Post by endtime »

gills wrote: post #9

I read this book for the first time, last summer. It was actually a little bit spooky -- OK, very spooky -- to read basically the same thing (metaphorically) in the book and the news most days of the week.

I know what you mean - I felt the same way after reading Age of Tolerance (similar to Atlas Shrugged but specific to contemporary American political issues) and then saw people singing the national anthem in Spanish, but with the words politically modified.

I've read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged too, but it was a while ago.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#76

Post by jwesley »

seehafer wrote: post #55
jwesley wrote: post #45

Atlas Shrugged is propaganda masquerading as art. The characters are thin shells used to promote Rand's thinking and in no way reflect reality. The idea that unbridled self interest leads to the greatest good guided Greenspan's monetary policy and got us into this mess. There is certainly a lot to be said for enlightened self interest and personal freedom, but the absolutism of objectivism is just as wrong as communi…

"The characters are thin shells used to promote Rand's thinking and in no way reflect reality." Well, whose thinking do you think they should have promoted, exactly? And why do characters in a novel necessarily need to exactly reflect reality? I haven't run into any elves, dwarves, or immortal wizards, but that didn't stop me from enjoying Tolkien. "The idea that unbridled self interest leads to the greatest good gui…

1. If a novel is intended to be realistic fiction, it should reflect reality, not the author's philosophical agenda. (My opinion, but I think this is the only way serious art reveals truth. Imagine if Marx had written a novel.) This is distinct from fantasy. I'm a Tolkien fan too, but I don't think anyone would turn to LOTR for economic guidance.

2. Artificially low interest rates reflect Greenspan's belief that given enough liquidity, markets will be self correcting. He thought banks were in the best position to protect themselves from risk because they bear the greatest consequences of failure. (He has since admitted the failure of this belief.) Clearly they were not, as the low interest rates lead to further inflation of the credit bubble.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#77

Post by eru »

endtime wrote: post #75
gills wrote: post #9

I read this book for the first time, last summer. It was actually a little bit spooky -- OK, very spooky -- to read basically the same thing (metaphorically) in the book and the news most days of the week.

I know what you mean - I felt the same way after reading Age of Tolerance (similar to Atlas Shrugged but specific to contemporary American political issues) and then saw people singing the national anthem in Spanish, but with the words politically modified. I've read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged too, but it was a while ago.

> then saw people singing the national anthem in Spanish,

Would this be a good or a bad thing?

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#78

Post by mseebach »

msie wrote: post #43
ellyagg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God, that's kind of despicable. I'm no Objectivist, but there's a big freaking difference between a work of superstition and one of reason and logic. Whether you agree with Rand's premises, you must have had no exposure to her writing if you don't recognize her brilliance. She's not all right, but she's not wrong about everything either: The government confiscates citizens' money at the point of a gun.

"The government confiscates citizens' money at the point of a gun." Why don't you find a place where you don't have to pay taxes? Would it be as nice to live in as the US?

I call strawman.

The government confiscates citizens money at the point of a gun, and at least some of it goes to frivolous spending, and that's nothing but waste - and that's Ayn Rands premise which you said nothing to counter.

Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

#80

Post by mattmaroon »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #70
mattmaroon wrote: post #51

So because government programs in a work of fiction caused more harm than good, all government programs in the non-fiction world must be bad. Good logic.

Oh, don't interfere with the beautiful ways of ideology ;-) But seriously, government programs are in great danger of failing because _all_ big projects are in great danger of failing. I think you would easily find evidence of that. Taking a centralised decision on how to spend over a trillion dollars within a year or two, allowing no time for readjustment or seeing what actually works, is a very high risk business,…

That's at least a valid argument. I just don't think it's a good idea to base opinions on government programs on any work of fiction. Many treat Atlas the way the religious right treats the Bible.
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