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What if no one misses TikTok?

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Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#151

Post by dragonwriter »

dialup_sounds wrote: post #149
dragonwriter wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that whether or not TikTok is a “free speech platform” has nothing to do with the application 1st Amendment, it was about the offered argument, not the conclusion. OTOH, it wouldn't be the first time all three branches got the First Amendment wrong (one of the most popular 1A mantras — the one about fire in a crowded theater — came from dicta in what is now widely recognized as one such instance.)

That's a nice way of saying you took his words out of context to make a pedantic point that doesn't have to do with anything.

No, I didn't take it out of context: the argument be made was irrelevant to the conclusion it was offered to support. Choosing not to make an argument either way about the conclusion to add to that comment about how inappropriate the argument was in context is neither taking it out of context nor pedantic.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#152

Post by dialup_sounds »

dragonwriter wrote: post #151
dialup_sounds wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice way of saying you took his words out of context to make a pedantic point that doesn't have to do with anything.

No, I didn't take it out of context: the argument be made was irrelevant to the conclusion it was offered to support. Choosing not to make an argument either way about the conclusion to add to that comment about how inappropriate the argument was in context is neither taking it out of context nor pedantic.

You didn't even address an argument. You literally took three words and dunked on them for not meaning anything on their own, when in context that is exactly the point.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#153

Post by surfpel »

nozzlegear wrote: post #123
surfpel wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point! I hope all those Americans who can't afford basic necessities in this so-called 'developed country' can take solace in the existence of Chinese censorship. Now they can even take solace in the expansion of American censorship! In the end, what was the real revolutionary propaganda that the American establishment is afraid of? True cost of living statistics.

Actually I think you missed the point. The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want; it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country, and many (most?) don't even know about it. If you log into Rednote and ask "What happened on June 4th," you're going to get banned by Chinese censors. Whereas most Americans know that health insurance is some babyback bulls…

There's a lot to unpack here.

> The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want

Did you even read my comment?

> it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country

Wrong / highly misleading. Do you really think a country of 1.4 billion people can raise themselves out of poverty and overall dramatically raise the living standards for the masses without having a government that listens to the concerns of the people all across the country?

> If you log into Rednote and ask "What happened on June 4th," you're going to get banned by Chinese censors

I bet you the entire GDP of Canada that you don't know "what happened on June 4th".

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html

What you are describing here, anti-establishment propaganda, is precisely the reasoning cited for the TikTok ban to begin with, and exactly the reason China has their firewall. So... uh... yeah?

Also VPN's are widely used in China so it really doesn't support your claim.

> Whereas most Americans know that health insurance is some babyback bullshit that might have worked at one time but doesn't work anymore; and that cost of living is too high in certain cities

Exactly! This proves how structurally powerless American freedom of speech is to enact real change. How is it that there were able to secure social services and unprecedented poverty reduction, or even had the political desire to?

> The fact that we're sitting here typing at each other about it is proof positive.

This proves precisely zero things. This isn't even related to anything you said.

"The fact that we're discussing how broken healthcare is proves everything is fine!"

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#154

Post by JetSpiegel »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #104
spencerflem wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not But also I care a lot less about the CCP because they have very little impact on my day to day

Well aside from producing probably 95% of the goods you use day to day. Other than that, very little impact.

Goods that could be produced in the US, but are no longer since before they were born.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#155

Post by JetSpiegel »

surfpel wrote: post #153
nozzlegear wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I think you missed the point. The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want; it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country, and many (most?) don't even know about it. If you log into Rednote and ask "What happened on June 4th," you're going to get banned by Chinese censors. Whereas most Americans know that health insurance is some babyback bulls…

There's a lot to unpack here. > The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want Did you even read my comment? > it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country Wrong / highly misleading. Do you really think a country of 1.4 billion people can raise themselves out of poverty and overall dramatically raise the living standards for the masses without having a g…

Did you read your own link past the first paragraph?

> GALLO SAW MANY CASUALTIES BROUGHT INTO THE SQUARE AND DID NOT DOUBT THAT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN BEIJING WERE KILLED BY THE ARMY ON JUNE 3 AND 4.

Yes, a Chilean diplomat was seen as neutral, but was then debriefed by the Americans two weeks later.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#156

Post by surfpel »

JetSpiegel wrote: post #155
surfpel wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to unpack here. > The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want Did you even read my comment? > it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country Wrong / highly misleading. Do you really think a country of 1.4 billion people can raise themselves out of poverty and overall dramatically raise the living standards for the masses without having a g…

Did you read your own link past the first paragraph? > GALLO SAW MANY CASUALTIES BROUGHT INTO THE SQUARE AND DID NOT DOUBT THAT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN BEIJING WERE KILLED BY THE ARMY ON JUNE 3 AND 4. Yes, a Chilean diplomat was seen as neutral, but was then debriefed by the Americans two weeks later.

There's plenty more evidence out there that answers your other questions. That's just to refute the main concept of a 'fish in a barrel' style massacre that's been fed to us. Media also don't tell you that the protests were largely due to economic inequality and corruption that came as a direct, predicted result of economic liberalization from Deng. Consider also that the masses were literally JUST mobilized to seek out capitalism and destroy it violently during the cultural revolution when suddenly the elites in their society opened up to capitalism and even participated. They also don't tell you about the soldiers who were burned alive or shot by protesters, prior to any gunfire. Of a million there, between 300-600 protesters and plenty of soldiers too, wheras the media pushes the narrative that thousands were slaughtered like fish in a barrel in the middle of the square. Overall a tragic event and why social stability is so important, but it's not the "spirit of an oppressed people" that we're always told it is, they're just building the pretext for a "war of liberation" or other hostilities.

This is active propaganda. You think the Gov spends billions on propaganda overseas and they make no effort internally? I mean think about it for a moment.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/china-cold-war-2669160202/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird#External...

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#157

Post by ch4s3 »

ericmay wrote: post #132
cherry_tree wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is low effort, you couldn’t google that exact phrase rather than putting it in as a comment? https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1/first-amendment-... > Supreme Court wrote in NAACP v. Alabama ex rel. Patterson (1958): >"It is beyond debate that freedom to engage in association for advancements of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of the 'liberty' assured by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteent…

Please don't accuse people of engaging in "low effort" comments. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. You can see that I've actually written quite a few very good and well-thought responses to discussion points raised by others. It's anything but low effort. In a discussion where the First Amendment related to speech is at the center of the discussion, it's important for people to define what they mean by First…

The first amendment isn't simply broken into atomic bullet pointed freedoms that can individually be negotiated. The amendment specifically says "peaceably assemble", which is tied to speech, press, religious expression, and petitioning government in the text. It is part of a long historic stream of law and judicial decisions in the common law dating back to the Magna Carta. Free speech is not truly free if the government tells you where you can and can't do it. There is a long legal tradition saying as much.
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