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What if no one misses TikTok?

nytimes.com

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Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#121

Post by kalleboo »

ericmay wrote: post #42
wongarsu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values

Sure but what would that have to do with this action here? TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders. Likewise the United States has recognized that this is…

At least I hope this drives the EU to ban the use of X in their territory for the same reasons as the TikTok ban in the US. The owner is part of the incoming regime, and has been explicit about wanting to influence European elections.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#122

Post by disambiguation »

wongarsu wrote: post #26
daft_pink wrote: post #8

It’s totally insane that China can ban all American social networks on security concerns and ban all kinds of just basic speech on their apps, but banning a Chinese social network is so controversial.

China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values

And America doesn't claim to uphold the rights of non-americans.

If this was a ban on an American company it would be a different story.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#123

Post by nozzlegear »

surfpel wrote: post #73
nozzlegear wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These seem to go both ways btw, e.g. Chinese people being amazed that we really do need to pay for ambulance rides and that it’s not just govt propaganda. People are going where interesting things are happening, it’s plain and simple. Sadly, since Rednote is monitored and censored by the CCP, the novelty and depth of those 'wow, your country is really like that?' conversations is rather one-sided. You can bet if th…

Great point! I hope all those Americans who can't afford basic necessities in this so-called 'developed country' can take solace in the existence of Chinese censorship. Now they can even take solace in the expansion of American censorship! In the end, what was the real revolutionary propaganda that the American establishment is afraid of? True cost of living statistics.

Actually I think you missed the point. The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want; it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country, and many (most?) don't even know about it. If you log into Rednote and ask "What happened on June 4th," you're going to get banned by Chinese censors.

Whereas most Americans know that health insurance is some babyback bullshit that might have worked at one time but doesn't work anymore; and that cost of living is too high in certain cities. The fact that we're sitting here typing at each other about it is proof positive.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#124

Post by ericmay »

dragonwriter wrote: post #120
ericmay wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this argument is that you are putting TikTok on a pedestal. The US (and every country on the planet) has rules and regulations around who can do business in their country and who their citizens may do business with. If you want to argue that the U.S. shouldn't be able to prohibit its citizens from doing business with TikTok you should spend some time generalizing that argument and figuring out a good…

> "Free speech" is not a good argument here. TikTok isn't a "free speech" platform. Free speech doesn't protect free speech platforms: free speech protects every speaker, platform, and listener against regulations targeted on the basis of content/viewpoint.

Yep and you are still protected under the 1st Amendment even if you can't use TikTok because the government stopped the company from doing business in America.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#125

Post by bdangubic »

kalleboo wrote: post #121
ericmay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but what would that have to do with this action here? TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders. Likewise the United States has recognized that this is…

At least I hope this drives the EU to ban the use of X in their territory for the same reasons as the TikTok ban in the US. The owner is part of the incoming regime, and has been explicit about wanting to influence European elections.

this is exactly what should happen if EU had the balls

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#126

Post by ericmay »

tveita wrote: post #117
ericmay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but what would that have to do with this action here? TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders. Likewise the United States has recognized that this is…

> the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. Yes, speech does that. "The algorithm" is curation but the content we are talking about is mostly Americans talking to other Americans. The goal is to control and suppress that communication. There are perfectly valid arguments to ban TikTok. And hey, there are arguments to be made that free speech shouldn't be abs…

My argument (mostly) is that TikTok is just a random company that we permitted to do business in the United States and we can revoke that permission at any time as it suits our needs and laws. TikTok sells advertisements and people talk about those advertisements. That's all it does.

Whether people share memes or communicate American to American isn't material. We know this is true because a company with the same features and products can be shut down if it's discovered that the same company engaged in other illegal activities (let's say money laundering or human trafficking to make it clear) and so someone's First Amendment rights would be abridged by the shut down of the company.

TikTok is just in the same scenario and has now found itself afoul of US laws and regulations and has to adjust by selling itself or it can exit the market.

The other thing here is that you'd have to convincingly argue that people who have never used TikTok (me for example) have now had their First Amendment rights violated, but there has been no change in my First Amendment rights. I can still use my freedom of speech as I could before.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#127

Post by ericmay »

bdangubic wrote: post #125
kalleboo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least I hope this drives the EU to ban the use of X in their territory for the same reasons as the TikTok ban in the US. The owner is part of the incoming regime, and has been explicit about wanting to influence European elections.

this is exactly what should happen if EU had the balls

Why not ban both? The world would be better off for it anyway.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#128

Post by cherry_tree »

ericmay wrote: post #116
ch4s3 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can call them up and just chat or go have tea with them. The crime there is evading a weapons sanction. Controlling weapons sales isn’t an infringement on 1a association rights. That’s a stupid trade policy.

What are First Amendment Association rights?

This is low effort, you couldn’t google that exact phrase rather than putting it in as a comment?

https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1/first-amendment-...

> Supreme Court wrote in NAACP v. Alabama ex rel. Patterson (1958):

>"It is beyond debate that freedom to engage in association for advancements of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of the 'liberty' assured by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which embraces freedom of speech."

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#129

Post by nozzlegear »

keybored wrote: post #100
nozzlegear wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting theory, some would call it conspiratorial, but regardless it's not quite the point.

A Russian and an American get on a plane in Moscow and get to talking. The Russian says he works for the Kremlin and he's on his way to go learn American propaganda techniques. "American propaganda techniques? Sounds conspiratorial" says the American. "Exactly," the Russian replies.

Great anecdote, I really like it and I'll definitely be using it myself with the parties reversed or changed in the future. But I can't help but feel like we're veering even further off topic here, since nobody was talking about the Russians or propaganda. If you had maybe changed the Russians to Chinese it could've been a real zinger, but I can only assume you just wanted to get what you thought would be a quick dunk in on me with your off topic anecdote.

Re: What if no one misses TikTok?

#130

Post by dialup_sounds »

foogazi wrote: post #86
wongarsu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values

How can speech on TikTok be free if TikTok as a platform is not ?

The law regulates TikTok as a business, not their speech.
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