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Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

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Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#81

Post by rprasad »

atirip wrote: post #55
ktizo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are legally obliged to for any sales to the US territories. So if you are in the US and buy Minecraft, then they are exporting software to the US and have to comply with relevant law and any trade agreements between Sweden and the US.

First. A company in whatever country is legally obliged only to that country's law. Export means that company is selling something in his jurisdiction to somebody who is not. That somebody is importer. Importer has to comply with the law of the country he/she is importing. One can not expect that exporter burden is to know all UN members laws. Second. There cannot be and there is none agreements between Sweden and US…

First, A country is legally obliged to follow the laws of all countries in which they do business. For legal purposes, "doing business" means actual physical operations in a country or knowingly and deliberately selling into a country. This is basic international law.

Second. That is not how import/export law works. I do not have time to explain how it applies, so Google it.

Third. Your second statement is correct.

Fourth. Your third statement is not correct. Apple can sue HTC in the U.S. b/c HTC does business in the U.S. Apple chose to pursue this case in the ITC b/c it is asignificantly faster way to achieve its business goals (namely, interfering with a competitor's sales of a product). Patent litigation through the court system is a very slow, years-long process, and could take long enough that Apple would be on the down-cycle again.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#82

Post by rprasad »

Vivtek wrote: post #78
sigkill wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even I would like an expert to answer this. Assuming my domain is a .com domain, does the USA have jurisdiction over the company even if say, it's registered in Sweden?

I'd also like to hear an expert's opinion, but isn't the entire point of a limited liability company to limit liability?

Limited liability refers to the liability of the shareholders/investors for the obligations and judgements against the company. Their liability is "limited" to the amount of their investment.

Contrast with a partnership, in which the owners/investors are subject to potentially unlimited liability.

For example: LLC A settles a lawsuit for $10 million. Investors B and C's liability is limited to the size of their investment (we'll say $100).

Partnership X settles a lawsuit for $10 million. Partners Y and Z are each liable for the $10 million (the opposing party only gets to collect $10 million once, he simply can choose to go after either or both partners for payment). The opposing party can go after Partners Y'z and Z's personal assets, unless they declare bankruptcy.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#83

Post by rprasad »

jahewson wrote: post #31
tinco wrote: post #11

I have a question about this. Can you be sued from Texas if you sell your software in any state _but_ Texas? So if I add a clause to my EULA that the product can not be bought or used in the state of Texas, would that force patent trolls to sue in a different state? edit: This wiki.answers page seems to say that could work http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_someone_sue_another_person_if_...

You might also be expected to take some measures to enforce this, such as a State drop-down box, with an "I agree" EULA/ToS.

You are referring to a "choice of forum" clause (which is distinct from a "choice of jurisdiction clause").

Choice of forum determines where any disputes are held. Choice of jurisdiction determines what state's laws apply (if the dispute involves a matter of state law).

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#84

Post by mattmanser »

Arwill wrote: post #71

This is pretty fucked up. So now anyone in the world can expect to be sued in the US on base of US software patents? How do you release anything in a situation like this. Then there is the burden of going to a court in Texas? How in the fuck they expect that a Swedish company hires lawyers in Texas? Just how much would that cost? Also this is going to beyond any sanity. Practically you have to stick to some common "p…

It's because Mojang sells stuff in the US via their website.

I also assume Mojang could just completely ignore it if they have no assets in America, although I guess they'd be a risk of having minecraft.net seized as .net's US administered isn't it?

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#85

Post by rprasad »

huhtenberg wrote: post #54
mdc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. huhtenberg's analogy was flawed. His analogy to selling liquor only works if you remote-access a computer in Sweden and then buy Minecraft from that computer. Then when you copy Minecraft from the remote to your home system, you're the importer. If you buy from a US-based computer then it's Mojang acting as an importer to the US. The liquor analogy would be if you ordered a bottle of liquor to be shipped to th…

Neither your nor my interpretation of an online purchase is a correct one. An online purchase from a computer in one country at a web server in another can be treated as both an import (by a purchaser) and an export (by a seller). But since a sale is typically solicited by a purchaser (it's driven by those who purchase), I'd say it's an import rather than an export. > liquor to be shipped to the US and the liquor sto…

Generally under international law, a consumer cannot be the "importer" of record because there are all sorts of fun obligations that come with being an "importer".

Carrying stuff you bought on an overseas trip through customs is not "importation" for legal purposes.

Also, export restrictions are different from import laws. Export laws are applied by the seller's country. The buyer does not have to comply with export laws. Import laws are applied by the buyer's country. Both the buyer and seller must comply with import laws unless the buyer is an "importer of record" in which case only the buyer must comply with import laws.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#86

Post by rprasad »

atirip wrote: post #28
rwmj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[I'm not saying any of this is right, just pointing out how it's done] (1) You go after the companies collecting the money (Visa etc) and delivering the app (Google, Apple). These very much have physical offices and principals in the US. (2) You arrest people who dare to fly through/over/near the US. See: legal UK gambling companies. (3) You attempt to extradite anyone not caught by (1) or (2), if necessary pushing f…

I don't know US law, but is this http://www.quizlaw.com/patents/what_are_the_penalties_for_pa... correct? You see, if there's only monetary penalties and company is sued then no individal is in danger of any sort. I mean (2) and (3) often came around in such discussions, so I have to ask: is anybody ever arrested in US and thrown in jail when that somebody's company potentially owns money to somebody. Because at leas…

The U.S. specifically forbids debtor's prison. You cannot be thrown in jail simply for owing money to someone. European countries copied this right from the U.S. when they got around to modernizing their legal systems.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#87

Post by hmmmmmmmmmm »

rprasad wrote: post #79
hmmmmmmmmmm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this be a viable way to escape some frivolous patent lawsuit? I've often wondered about this, and even tried to research it somewhat, but I'm still unsure about it. Suppose I have an LLC for my small (one-man) business in the U.S., and then I get targeted by a patent troll with some ridiculous claims. Can I simply start up another LLC in another country (one with saner patent laws), transfer my domains/hosting/…

The U.S. has jurisdiction over ICANN and thus over all TLD's that are not country TLDs (i.e., .co, .tv, .ly, etc.). But jurisdiction extends only to the domain itself, not to the company, unless you are doing business in the U.S., in which case you are subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. to the extent of your business contacts. Transferring your U.S. assets will probably not spare you, as jurisdiction is establis…

Thanks for all your comments on this page, they're very illuminating.

I understand why a lawsuit could target the American LLC, but even if I dissolve it or let it go under, why wouldn't I and my assets still be protected?

I understand that once I switch to the foreign LLC I'd have to avoid any business ties to the U.S. (i.e. move my hosting overseas). I assume that I'd still have subscribers to my service in the U.S., but it doesn't make sense to me that that would constitute doing business there. By that rationale wouldn't every internet company be subject to the jurisdiction of every country on Earth?

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#88

Post by bragh »

rprasad wrote: post #86
atirip wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know US law, but is this http://www.quizlaw.com/patents/what_are_the_penalties_for_pa... correct? You see, if there's only monetary penalties and company is sued then no individal is in danger of any sort. I mean (2) and (3) often came around in such discussions, so I have to ask: is anybody ever arrested in US and thrown in jail when that somebody's company potentially owns money to somebody. Because at leas…

The U.S. specifically forbids debtor's prison. You cannot be thrown in jail simply for owing money to someone. European countries copied this right from the U.S. when they got around to modernizing their legal systems.

Not American, but can't you be jailed for contempt of court?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jailed-for--280--the-return-of...

http://farquharlaw.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/debtors-prison-e...

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#89

Post by jmduke »

kstrauser wrote: post #75

I propose a fun and existing amendment to intellectual property cases: if the plaintiff loses, the defendant gets to shoot the plaintiff (or the plaintiff's CEO) and the losing legal team. Not at a distant time and place, mind you, but right there on the spot. "We the jury find the defendant not liable blam blam ." I think that should reduce the number of patent lawsuits to approximately the number appropriate for an…

The fuck?

Replace 'intellectual property' with 'whistleblower' and you've suddenly illustrated exactly the terrible climate that scares a lot of people away from doing the right thing.

The problem isn't overzealousness. Hell, overzealousness should be commended. The problem is a system which drains time and resources regardless and outcome, and a general ignorance due to the complexity of technology & prior art.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#90

Post by kstrauser »

jmduke wrote: post #89
kstrauser wrote: post #75

I propose a fun and existing amendment to intellectual property cases: if the plaintiff loses, the defendant gets to shoot the plaintiff (or the plaintiff's CEO) and the losing legal team. Not at a distant time and place, mind you, but right there on the spot. "We the jury find the defendant not liable blam blam ." I think that should reduce the number of patent lawsuits to approximately the number appropriate for an…

The fuck? Replace 'intellectual property' with 'whistleblower' and you've suddenly illustrated exactly the terrible climate that scares a lot of people away from doing the right thing. The problem isn't overzealousness. Hell, overzealousness should be commended. The problem is a system which drains time and resources regardless and outcome, and a general ignorance due to the complexity of technology & prior art.

We want overzealous IP litigation? To the contrary: yes, that is exactly the problem.
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