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OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

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Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see this both ways. For the sake of argument, please explain why using IP to train an AI is evil, but using the same IP to train a human is good. Note that humans use someone else's IP to get rich all the time. E.g. Doctors reading medical textbooks.

>Note that humans use someone else's IP to get rich all the time. E.g. Doctors reading medical textbooks. You need a better example, a textbook was created with this exact purpose of sharing knowledge with the reader. My second point, if you write a poem and I read it and memorize it, then publish it as my own with some slight changes you would be upset? If I get your painting, then use a script to apply a small filt…

> My second point, if you write a poem and I read it and memorize it, then publish it as my own with some slight changes you would be upset?

I feel the problem with analogizing to humans while trying to make a point against unlicensed machine learning is that applying the same moral/legal rules as we do to humans to generative models (learning is not infringement, output is only infringement if it's a substantially similar copy of a protected work, and infringement may still be covered by fair use) would be a very favorable outcome for machine learning.

> they just mix inputs and then interpolate an answer , is some cases you can't guess what input image/text was used

Even if you actually interpolated some set of inputs (which is not how diffusion models or transformers work), without substantial similarity to a protected work you're in the clear.

> is my script "creative"? [...] This AIs are not really creative [...]

There's no requirement for creativity - even traditional algorithms can make modifications such that the result lacks substantial similarity and thus is not copyright infringement, or is covered by fair use due to being transformative.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#133
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When has something like this ever happened? It feels like legislature exists to make money happy.

> When has something like this ever happened? Anything that used to be freely available but no longer is. Once upon a time Laudanum (tincture of opium) used to be the OTC painkiller of choice. In slightly more recent times, there's asbestos. In certain locales, gambling. There's countries that have reigned in lootboxes. > It feels like legislature exists to make money happy. Come on now, it doesn't just "feel" that w…

A single consumable is easy to ban. Computer binaries widely distributed isn't.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know why you are getting downvotes, you are absolutely correct. A training method for some authors who want to adopt an older artists voice is to literally rewrite their novels. Word for word. They will go through an entire authors catalogue and reproduce them, so that they can learn to mimic them when creating something new. You go ahead and automate the process, and suddenly the world is ending. Ditto all ot…

HN is not only filled with people who never learned how to code, it's filled with people who never learned how to write either. Hunter Thompson literally sat down and typed out every word of Hemingway's novels so he could figure out what good writing feels like. Why is he allowed to do it in private, but an LLM isn't?

Because Hunter S Thompson is a talented writer, and an LLM is a statistical method for generating text that looks like other text. An LLM isn't going to ingest all of Hemingway and write Hell's Angels.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#136
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is not only filled with people who never learned how to code, it's filled with people who never learned how to write either. Hunter Thompson literally sat down and typed out every word of Hemingway's novels so he could figure out what good writing feels like. Why is he allowed to do it in private, but an LLM isn't?

Because Hunter S Thompson is a talented writer, and an LLM is a statistical method for generating text that looks like other text. An LLM isn't going to ingest all of Hemingway and write Hell's Angels.

>You must be this talented for fair use to apply to you.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#137
post #25

Aren't lawsuits the proper way to address this? Seems like there's an argument that model weights are a derivative work of the training data, at least if the model is capable of producing output that would be ruled to be such a derivative work given minimal prompting. Although it may not work with photography since the model might just almost exclusively learn how the object of the photo looks in general and how phot…

I think that argument falls down though, because a derivative work is an expressive work in its own right, and model weights aren't. It would seem more coherent to argue that a model output could be a derivative work, though it would need to include a significant portion of some given source. But even then, since the copyright office's position is that they're not copyrightable, I'm not sure they could qualify.

Model weights, if they can reproduce something like the original, are just a form of lossy compression (or even lossless for text), where the LLM answering the prompt is a more powerful version of asking software to retrieve a specific file from a Zip archive (or a webserver answering an HTTP query) of such lossy compressed data.

So if model weights don't infringe, that would also imply that saving an image as a JPG or a video using AV-1 doesn't infringe, which would obviously effectively implies that copyright doesn't apply to images or videos on the web, which is not current law/policy, so I think that reasoning cannot possibly work.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#138

No way OpenAI will ever “good citizen” this. Tools to opt out of training sets will only come if they are legally compelled. Governments will have to make respecting some sort of training preference header on public content mandatory I think. The fact that photographers have to independently submit each piece of work they wanted excluded along with detailed descriptions just shows how much they DONT want anyone exclu…

Sounds like they want photographers to do the data labeling for them....

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#139
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copyright doesn't prevent anyone from "using" a person's work. It should. The 'free and open internet' is finished because nobody is going to want to subject their IP to rampant laundering that makes someone else rich. Tragedy of the commons.

I can see this both ways. For the sake of argument, please explain why using IP to train an AI is evil, but using the same IP to train a human is good. Note that humans use someone else's IP to get rich all the time. E.g. Doctors reading medical textbooks.

scale

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#140
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copyright doesn't prevent anyone from "using" a person's work. It should. The 'free and open internet' is finished because nobody is going to want to subject their IP to rampant laundering that makes someone else rich. Tragedy of the commons.

Under this mentality, every search engine index would be shut down.

cool
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