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OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

petapixel.com

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Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#121

Post by simion314 »

munchler wrote: post #96
23B1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copyright doesn't prevent anyone from "using" a person's work. It should. The 'free and open internet' is finished because nobody is going to want to subject their IP to rampant laundering that makes someone else rich. Tragedy of the commons.

I can see this both ways. For the sake of argument, please explain why using IP to train an AI is evil, but using the same IP to train a human is good. Note that humans use someone else's IP to get rich all the time. E.g. Doctors reading medical textbooks.

>Note that humans use someone else's IP to get rich all the time. E.g. Doctors reading medical textbooks.

You need a better example, a textbook was created with this exact purpose of sharing knowledge with the reader.

My second point, if you write a poem and I read it and memorize it, then publish it as my own with some slight changes you would be upset?

If I get your painting, then use a script to apply a small filter to it then sell it as my own, is this legal? is my script "creative"?

This AIs are not really creative, they just mix inputs and then interpolate an answer , is some cases you can't guess what input image/text was used but in other cases it was shown ezactly the source that was used and just copy pasted in the answer.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#122

Post by protocolture »

llm_trw wrote: post #40
toddmorey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t entirely agree. For example, it’s a very popular scheme on Etsy right now to use LLMs to generate posters in the style of popular artists. Any artist should be able to say hey I don’t want my works to be part of your training set to power derivative generations. And I think it should even apply retroactively so that they have to retrain their models that are already generating works from training data consume…

Should any artist be able to tell another artist: hey don't copy my work when you're learning, I don't want competition? It seems like they are deeply upset someone has figured out a way for a machine to do what artists have been doing since time immemorial.

I dont know why you are getting downvotes, you are absolutely correct.

A training method for some authors who want to adopt an older artists voice is to literally rewrite their novels. Word for word. They will go through an entire authors catalogue and reproduce them, so that they can learn to mimic them when creating something new.

You go ahead and automate the process, and suddenly the world is ending.

Ditto all other kinds of art. Heck I knew of 3 living artists doing this to each other in real time.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#123

Post by protocolture »

JambalayaJimbo wrote: post #46
llm_trw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should any artist be able to tell another artist: hey don't copy my work when you're learning, I don't want competition? It seems like they are deeply upset someone has figured out a way for a machine to do what artists have been doing since time immemorial.

Llms are not humans and shouldn’t be anthropomorphized as a strategy to get around copyright infringement.

Absolutely correct, LLMs are code. If that code ingests data without precisely replicating it, that's fair use and the end of the discussion.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#124

Post by protocolture »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #77
tiahura wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your business model depends on the Roberts' court kneecapping AI, pivot. Training does not constitute "copying" under copyright law because it involves the creation of intermediate, non-expressive data abstractions that do not reproduce or communicate the copyrighted work's original expression. This process aligns with fair use principles, as it is transformative, serves a distinct purpose (machine learning innova…

I believe there are some other issues other than just "is it transformative". I can't take an Andy Warhol painting, modify it in some way and then claim it's my own original work. I have some obligation to say "Yeah, I used a Warhol painting as the basis for it". Similarly, I can't take a sample of a Taylor Swift song and use it myself in my own music - I have to give Taylor credit, and probably some portion of the r…

>I can't take an Andy Warhol painting, modify it in some way and then claim it's my own original work. I have some obligation to say "Yeah, I used a Warhol painting as the basis for it".

If you dont replicate Warhols painting entirely, then you are fine. Its original work.

The number of Scifi novels I read that are just an older concept reimagined with more modern characters is huge.

>I can't take an Andy Warhol painting, modify it in some way and then claim it's my own original work. I have some obligation to say "Yeah, I used a Warhol painting as the basis for it".

In most sane jurisdictions you can sample other work. Consider collage. It is usually a fair use exemption outside of the USA. If LLMs cause keyboard warriors to develop some seppocentric mindvirus leading to the destruction of collage I will be pissed.

>There's also still the issue that some LLMs and (I believe) image generation AI models have regurgitated works from their training models - in whole or part.

Considered a high priority bug and stamped out. Usually its in part because a feature is common to all of an artists work, like their signature.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#125

Post by protocolture »

Terr_ wrote: post #19

"By continuing, you agree that using any content from this site in training Generative AI grants the site-owner a perpetual, irrevocable, and royalty-free license to use and re-license any and all output created by that Generative AI system, including but not limited to derivative works based on that output." Just just a GPL-esque idea I've been musing lately [0], I'd appreciate any feedback from actual IP lawyers. T…

I dont think you can exclaim away fair use protections. Otherwise everyone already would.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#126

Post by protocolture »

9283409232 wrote: post #12

People need to understand these companies are not good actors and will not let you opt out unless forced. I have a 20 dollar bet with a friend that Trump's admin will get training data classified as fair use and the whole issue will be done away with anyway

Its clearly fair use regardless of what trump does.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#127

Post by orra »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #116
andrei_says_ wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the time when p2p music sharing became popular and the record companies had to submit every song they did not want to get shared along with an explanation to every person who had Napster installed. Or was it that the record companies got to sue individuals for astronomic amounts of made up damages for every song potentially shared? Which one was it?

> and the record companies had to submit every song they did not want to get shared along with an explanation to every person who had Napster installed. ...when did that ever happen? The post-Napster-but-pre-BitTorrent era (coincidentally, the same time-period as the BonziBuddy-era) was when Morpheus, KaZaA, eDonkey, Limewire, et cetera were relevant, and they got-away-with-it, in-part, by denying they had any abilit…

This almost got me too, but you missed GP’s point. See their next paragraph beginning “Or”. (It's about double standards for individual versus corporate copyright infringement.)

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#128

Post by llm_trw »

protocolture wrote: post #122
llm_trw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should any artist be able to tell another artist: hey don't copy my work when you're learning, I don't want competition? It seems like they are deeply upset someone has figured out a way for a machine to do what artists have been doing since time immemorial.

I dont know why you are getting downvotes, you are absolutely correct. A training method for some authors who want to adopt an older artists voice is to literally rewrite their novels. Word for word. They will go through an entire authors catalogue and reproduce them, so that they can learn to mimic them when creating something new. You go ahead and automate the process, and suddenly the world is ending. Ditto all ot…

HN is not only filled with people who never learned how to code, it's filled with people who never learned how to write either.

Hunter Thompson literally sat down and typed out every word of Hemingway's novels so he could figure out what good writing feels like.

Why is he allowed to do it in private, but an LLM isn't?

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#129

Post by lm28469 »

wilg wrote: post #5
dgfitz wrote: post #3

Eventually the headline will be the first 2 words. The tech is neat, there is value in a sense, LLMs are a fun tech. They are not going to invent AGI with LLMs.

who cares if they do it with LLMs or not? how do you define agi?

I care because it's brought to us by same same deranged brains who promised self driving cars "in two years" every year since 2012, and a fully autonomous mars city "by 2030".

We're all wasting time and resources on what basically amounts to alchemy while we could tackle real problems.

Tech solutionists keep making promises for the next 5-10-20 years and never deliver, AI, electric planes, clean fuel, autonomous cars, the meta verse, brain implents. You'd expect the internet would have made people smarter but we fall for the same snake oil as 100 years ago, en masse this time

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#130

Post by lm28469 »

protocolture wrote: post #126
9283409232 wrote: post #12

People need to understand these companies are not good actors and will not let you opt out unless forced. I have a 20 dollar bet with a friend that Trump's admin will get training data classified as fair use and the whole issue will be done away with anyway

Its clearly fair use regardless of what trump does.

I don't think anything is clear when it comes to laws... Even 10 words sentences from the constitution have been debated since they exist.
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