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OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

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Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#61

Shocking news about the company that fraudulently left "open" in its name after ripping off donors. I think the headline is too generous here. More accurate would be "OpenAI neglects to deliver opt-out system..."

Sorry, who did they rip off? All their investors stand to profit handsomely (if they live).

They ripped off everyone they lied to. The took money under the premise that they'd put humanity first as this AI transition happened (both in safety and in knowledge sharing), and they instead used that money to build a moat that'll make it harder for anyone else to accomplish those same goals. Investors in the original vision would have been better off had they not contributed any funds, and the monetary profit they're receiving in exchange won't be enough to offset those damages (in the sense that it's not enough to fund somebody attempting to execute the same mission now that OpenAI exists -- at least not with the same chance of success they anticipated when OpenAI was younger).

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how do you define agi? An AI that has enough sense of self-awareness to not hallucinate and to recognize the borders of its knowledge on its own . That is fundamentally impossible to do with LLMs because in the end, they are all next-token predictors while humans are capable of a much more complex model of storing and associating information and context, and most importantly, develop "mental models" from that infor…

> An AI that has enough sense of self-awareness to not hallucinate It's not entirely clear that this is meaningful. Humans engage in confabulation, too.

Humans engage in confabulation but they’re mostly aware of it. In some mental disorders they may not be aware; though statistically that is not too significant and no, we normally don’t confabulate as much as the current crop of AI aka LLMs.

As a tool LLMs are fantastic and am glad to look at them as solely as powerful tools. AGI is not here yet and maybe that’s a good thing. Who would want some kind of artificial intelligence that is capable of understanding us, that is capable of using psychological tricks on people, that could have different goals than us and so on.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#63
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t entirely agree. For example, it’s a very popular scheme on Etsy right now to use LLMs to generate posters in the style of popular artists. Any artist should be able to say hey I don’t want my works to be part of your training set to power derivative generations. And I think it should even apply retroactively so that they have to retrain their models that are already generating works from training data consume…

Should any artist be able to tell another artist: hey don't copy my work when you're learning, I don't want competition? It seems like they are deeply upset someone has figured out a way for a machine to do what artists have been doing since time immemorial.

This analogy seems to be made every time this comes up on HN, but I don't think it really holds water. First of all, when a human artist learns from another, it's inherently a level playing field for competition; the junior and senior are both human, neither are going to be 1,000,000x more productive as the other. So the senior artist really doesn't have that much to worry about. And the senior artist recognizes that they themselves were once a junior and had to learn from their seniors, so it's a debt paid forward which results in more art. And becoming a master artist or even an imitator takes dedication and hard work, even with lots of artwork to learn from, so that keeps competition to a certain level.

When it takes decades to develop an art style that a machine can copy in days, and then churn out derivative variations in seconds, it's no longer a level playing field. The machine can dramatically under-cut the artist who developed their style, much more than a copycat human artist could. This does become not just a threat to the livelihoods of artists, but also a disincentive to the development of new art styles.

In this case, patent law may be an apt comparison for the world we're entering. Patent law was developed with the idea in mind that it is a problem if a human competitor could simply take an invention, learn how it works, and then mass produce copies of it. There are several reasons for this, including creating an incentive for technology development, and also expediently transitioning IP to the public domain. But patents were added to the legal system basically because otherwise an inventor would not be on a level playing field with the competition, because it takes so many more resources to develop a new invention than to produce clones.

Existing IP law was built in a world where it was believed that machines were inherently incapable of learning and mass-producing new artistic works using styles learned from artists. It was not necessary to protect artists from junior artists learning how to work in their style, as long as it wasn't a forgery. But in a world of machine learning, perhaps we will decide it's reasonable to protect artists from machine copycats, just like we decided it was reasonable protect technology inventors from human copycats.

The patent system is not the right implementation; it's expensive to file a patent, and you need skilled lawyers to determine novelty, infringement, and so on. But for art and machine learning, it might be much simpler: a mandatory compensation for artists' work used as training data. Something like this is sometimes used in the music industry to determine royalties for radio broadcasting, or to account for copies spread by file sharing.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#64
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how do you define agi? An AI that has enough sense of self-awareness to not hallucinate and to recognize the borders of its knowledge on its own . That is fundamentally impossible to do with LLMs because in the end, they are all next-token predictors while humans are capable of a much more complex model of storing and associating information and context, and most importantly, develop "mental models" from that infor…

again i don't care whether its done with an LLM or not. there's no reason to think openai will only build LLMs. recognizing borders of its knowledge is a reasonable thing to include in an agi definition i suppose, but does not seem intractable. for the second one, ai drivers like tesla's current version is already skipping the object detection/classification and instead uses deep learning on the entire video frame an…

I haven’t seen any new sparks of intelligence. But it remains to be seen what OpenAi does. So far I haven’t seen any paradigm shifts or indications they’re not just scaling up and making their training corpus more vast. I could be wrong but if they had something we’d know by know. Every chatgpt release has been hyped up but somewhat dissapointing to many. But what do I know ..

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#65

I don't even understand why it's everyone elses problem to opt-out. Eventually - for how many of these AI companies would a person have to track down their opt-out processes just to protect their work from AI? That's crazy. OpenAI should be contacting every single one and asking for permission - like everyone has to in order to use a person's work. How they are getting away with this is beyond me.

Copyright doesn't prevent anyone from "using" a person's work. You can use copyrighted material all day long without a license or penalty. In particular, anyone is allowed to learn from copyrighted material by reading, hearing, or seeing it.

Copyright is intended to prevent everyone from copying a person's work. That's a very different thing.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#66
In my mental imagery this is a situation that any advancing civilization in the universe should eventually run into. There will be all kinds of materials from the laborious and expensive to the effortless and "I was the first" or some other entitlement. It all boils down to having or not having such automatons. I'm sure there have been plenty who, like us with our books, have successfully denied progress. I'm also sure there have been plenty where it was completely obvious to upload the entire database of ET knowledge.

It is equally obvious what the later gained and the former lost in the process.

We, with our books, have successfully prevented people from educating themselves with amazing implications. Now the challenge is to create equally impotent machines!

You have no further questions:)

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Napster had a moment too, but then they got steamrolled in court. Courts are slow, so it seems like nothing is happening, but there’s tons of cases in the pipeline. The media industry has forced many tech firms to bend the knee, OpenAI will follow suit. Nobody rips off Disney IP and lives to tell the tale.

If your business model depends on the Roberts' court kneecapping AI, pivot. Training does not constitute "copying" under copyright law because it involves the creation of intermediate, non-expressive data abstractions that do not reproduce or communicate the copyrighted work's original expression. This process aligns with fair use principles, as it is transformative, serves a distinct purpose (machine learning innova…

There was a time when it did not usurp the market for the original work, but as the technology improves and becomes more accessible, that seems to be changing.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, coupled with the obvious ideological motivations. Success could alter the course of human history, maybe even for the better. If you feel that what you're doing is that important, you're not going to let copyright law get in the way, and it would be silly to expect you to.

Oh please. OpenAI and I guess every other AI company are for-profit. The only change they are motivated by is their bank balances. If this were a less useful tool they’d still be motivated to ignore laws and exploit others.

Hard to say what motivates them, from the outside looking in. There have been signs of cultlike behavior before, such as the way the rank and file instantly lined up behind Altman when he was fired. You don't see that at Boeing or Microsoft.

Obviously it's a highly-commercial endeavor, which is why they are trying so hard to back away from the whole non-profit concept. But that's largely orthogonal to the question of whether they feel they are doing things for the benefit of humanity that are profound enough to justify blowing off copyright law.

Especially given that only HN'ers are 100% certain that training a model is infringement. In the real world, this is not a settled question. Why worry about obeying laws that don't even exist yet?

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#69
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t entirely agree. For example, it’s a very popular scheme on Etsy right now to use LLMs to generate posters in the style of popular artists. Any artist should be able to say hey I don’t want my works to be part of your training set to power derivative generations. And I think it should even apply retroactively so that they have to retrain their models that are already generating works from training data consume…

Impossible to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

A motivated legislature with skilled enforcement personnel could get the toothpaste back in the tube in short order provided they displayed an anomalous insensitivity to making the money sad.

Re: OpenAI fails to deliver opt-out system for photographers

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of note here is the reason it's "important" is it will make a shit-ton of money.

That, coupled with the obvious ideological motivations. Success could alter the course of human history, maybe even for the better. If you feel that what you're doing is that important, you're not going to let copyright law get in the way, and it would be silly to expect you to.

I can't say I believe that. If that were the case, they'd focus more on results and less on hyping up the next underwhelming generation.
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