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Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

arstechnica.com

161–170 of 195 posts

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Time of day (night driving especially) and speeding are major parameters for hazard avoidance. Minor nit: I expect someone driving in a suburb to pay more in premiums because...deer can't sue you.

90% of drivers consider themselves above average, and where I grew up we had pronghorns, which could pass you and cut in front of you even at 55. While reducing speed when you see deer is important, you won't see the one you hit. In my case it jumped over a road barrier from below, it would have been impossible to see. But human perception is limited, the best drivers I know (not including myself in this) respect the…

> While reducing speed when you see deer is important, you won't see the one you hit. In my case it jumped over a road barrier from below, it would have been impossible to see.

"Won't see it?"

You can't argue that all else equal, driving during the day is as likely to hit a pronghorn as driving at night. Not calling you a liar, but I'm skeptical.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so if I'm reading this correctly, annual premium income is around $30 billion, annual insurance payouts is also around $30 billion ( cost of administration). Investment assets under management around 66 billion. This is all right, I still don't see how the insurance business unit add value unless there are profitable years on average. I'll have to check out the letters, maybe they will explain this. Edit: Havin…

Insurance companies' investments come almost entirely from premiums that customers pay. These premiums show up as liabilities on the balance sheet because they represent future claims the company expects to pay out. Think of it this way: customers are paying now for a service (insurance coverage) they might need later. Let's use an example: If an insurance company has $66 billion in premiums collected, they know they…

please see my edit about the relevance of time delay. Im curious what you will say. Using the loan analogy, I understand how a firm can make money on loans with a repayment delay. This doesnt make sense to me if the payout is >100% and the average time delay converges to 0.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you could argue that driving near deer at all is still more risk of accidents and damage to the car than a driver who never goes out of their suburb?

Your missing the point. When your kid runs in the road. Do you want the to avoid an accident, or do you want to optimize for them just turning enough so they don't lose their insurance. When traffic ahead of you makes an emergency stop, do you want the person behind you at a safe distance to error on stopping earlier or do you want to add an incentive to just stop right before your bumper? There is a reason emergency…

I don't think they were the one's missing the point.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#164
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like it when unsafe drivers pay the costs of the way they endanger all of us.

Once insurance companies can charge perfect premiums, there will be no point in buying insurance at all.

Hanford has low rates and payouts. But their inspections were very demanding. They invented the Hanford Loop that keeps feed water in the boiler in case of a break, etc, etc. Being insured by them meant you'd be safe!

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

did you mean [(insurance payouts + expenses) / premiums collected] ?

Sure. I don't think people get tripped up on the OoO in context.

no worries, not trying to be pedantic, just wading into new territory with a lot of questions. Sometimes financial equations take unintuitive forms for niche use cases.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% of drivers consider themselves above average, and where I grew up we had pronghorns, which could pass you and cut in front of you even at 55. While reducing speed when you see deer is important, you won't see the one you hit. In my case it jumped over a road barrier from below, it would have been impossible to see. But human perception is limited, the best drivers I know (not including myself in this) respect the…

> While reducing speed when you see deer is important, you won't see the one you hit. In my case it jumped over a road barrier from below, it would have been impossible to see. "Won't see it?" You can't argue that all else equal, driving during the day is as likely to hit a pronghorn as driving at night. Not calling you a liar, but I'm skeptical.

Never made that claim, but dawn and dusk are the most risky.

Mine happened on a lunch break, can't see through rock either.

But you only see a fraction of the wildlife that is there. If your sole stratagy is to see them you may be surprised how many deer hit the sides of cars.

Complacency and selective attention are very real human problems.

The classic basketball game example of selective attention if you don't buy it.

https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#167

At least GasBuddy still works well if you only share while using app and you can generally do without precise location. In terms of its benefits, at least in Canada, it saves me a bunch of dough on gas. Highly recommended. Though I like the French approach where gas prices are all on a government website without needing to depend on crowd-sourcing: https://www.prix-carburants.gouv.fr/ I’m more worried about a navigat…

How much money do you estimate you've actually saved using GasBuddy?

Not the person you asked, but I normally buy a fair amount of gas and I use GasBuddy. Actually, I pay for GasBuddy by the month at $9.99 for discounts on gas and roadside assistance. I've done so for years.

For various personal reasons I haven't been driving a ton lately, so I'll pick a more typical month.

My direct discounts were $17.88 in that month on gasoline that was priced at $269.49, at a cost of $9.99, for a total savings of $7.89.

Plus whatever extra I might have paid if I didn't use GasBuddy at all to help with planning to buy gas where the price at the pump is cheapest (which anyone can do without a subscription or installing an app). The potential savings gained by being very selective of where I buy gas, using information provided by GasBuddy, is impossible for me to tabulate.

If I had to guess, then I would guess that being selective saves me an average of around 10%. So, about $27 in my example month.

(I do not participate in any of GasBuddy's drive-tracking programs, and it only knows my location when the app is open. Drive tracking is a thing they offer people to opt into (for "free") but I could see the writing on the wall with that, vis-a-vis this Allstate incident.)

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies' investments come almost entirely from premiums that customers pay. These premiums show up as liabilities on the balance sheet because they represent future claims the company expects to pay out. Think of it this way: customers are paying now for a service (insurance coverage) they might need later. Let's use an example: If an insurance company has $66 billion in premiums collected, they know they…

please see my edit about the relevance of time delay. Im curious what you will say. Using the loan analogy, I understand how a firm can make money on loans with a repayment delay. This doesnt make sense to me if the payout is >100% and the average time delay converges to 0.

No, that's not accurate. The time delay doesn't converge to 0 just because payouts match incoming premiums. Here's why:

Think of it like a water tank: - The tank contains 66B gallons (total liabilities) - 30B gallons flow in annually (new premiums) - 30B gallons flow out annually (claim payments) - The tank stays at 66B gallons (stable liability pool)

Even though the annual inflow equals the outflow (30B), it would still take about 2.2 years to drain the entire tank (66B/30B = 2.2) if you stopped adding new water. This is the average time delay.

The matching of annual inflows and outflows just means the system is in steady state; it doesn't affect the average duration of how long money stays in the system. That duration is determined by: - Total liability pool ($66B) divided by - Annual payout rate ($30B)

Another way to think about it: - Each premium dollar collected today is promised against future claims - Those future claims are spread out over the next several years - Even as old claims are paid, new premiums create new future obligations - The ratio of total obligations to annual payments (66/30) determines the average delay

So while the annual cash flows may match, the time delay is a structural feature of how insurance obligations are spread out over time. The matching of annual inflows and outflows maintains the system's stability but doesn't eliminate the time delay inherent in the insurance model.

It is intrinsic to the nature of insurance that there is a time delay. Even if the insured were to suffer a loss on the same day that they paid their premium, there will still be a delay. Even the most efficient, benevolent insurance operation cannot process a claim, value a loss, and settle the claim within a day.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what data? if i let a passenger use my phone to check something while i’m driving this will negatively impact me.

The phone usage data. You use a phone very differently when you're driving and when you're a passenger.

Great. Now they're not just analyzing my driving habits, but they are also analyzing my porn habits.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's just one lens [0] for home insurance going back to 2004 (~20 years). It appears that the combined ratios were under 100% for ~8 years. For the other 12 years they were over. 60% of the years were losses. The average is 101.535 for all years in your source. So over 20 years their costs were $101.53 for every $100 in premiums collected. I didn't say that they ALWAYS post losses, I said that it is very common,…

I'm addressing your premise. >Selling insurance and paying claims is a sort of loss leader for the insurance industry. Now you say > I didn't say that they ALWAYS post losses And > that insurance premiums are a net money loser for the industry. This is circular. As for the article, it shows the context that the last couple years have been exceptional and core operations aren't sustainable. Your reasoning doesn't expl…

The original discussion about insurance companies accepting small underwriting losses to gain investment capital (float) refers to the traditional insurance business model operating under normal conditions. This is different from the current market disruptions we're seeing in specific high-risk regions.

Insurance companies are indeed leaving certain markets and raising premiums dramatically, but this is happening because:

1. Climate Change Risk Unpredictability

* Traditional insurance models rely on being able to predict risk with reasonable accuracy

* Climate change is making weather-related disasters more frequent and severe

* Historical data becomes less reliable for predicting future losses

* This uncertainty makes it impossible to price policies appropriately

2. Regulatory Constraints

* State regulators often limit how much insurers can charge for coverage

* Companies can't price premiums high enough to cover increasing risks

* They're forced to choose between unsustainable losses or market exit

* Political pressure often prevents charging actuarially sound rates

3. Concentration of Risk

* Some areas face multiple overlapping risks (fire, flood, hurricane)

* Large-scale disasters can trigger many claims simultaneously

* This violates the insurance principle of risk diversification

* Even investment returns can't offset such concentrated losses

4. Scale of Potential Losses

* Traditional model accepts small predictable underwriting losses

* Current climate risks create potential for catastrophic losses

* Example: California wildfires can destroy entire communities at once

* No amount of investment income can offset such massive losses

5. Market Structure Issues

* Some markets require insurers to take all risks (can't be selective)

* Cross-subsidization between markets becoming unsustainable

* State-specific regulations creating fragmented markets

* Limited ability to diversify within regulated markets

While the traditional insurance model can handle planned small underwriting losses offset by investment gains, that model breaks down when facing large-scale unpredictable risks that can't be properly priced or diversified. This explains why insurers are withdrawing from certain markets while still operating profitably in others.

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