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43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

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Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#201

Post by omnimus »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #182
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Nah roads are great and cars are great. They let people get around in ways that are much faster than public transit, with your friends and cargo, protected from the weather, without the safety issues, directly to your destination. If you overbuild and create density of inhuman levels, and don’t build adequate road infrastructure, you will have problems. But otherwise, it’s fine and it works very well in cities of low…

Nah.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#202

Post by ventoffreshair »

ETH_start wrote: post #105
ventoffreshair wrote: post #64

[flagged]

Congestion pricing means less traffic so the bus can get to your destination faster. Right now there is no incentive to use the bus, so people don't. Everyone drives and everyone is worse off as a result of the greater traffic.

Are you for real? No one, literally no one out of choice travels by the BUS. If people are traveling by the bus, MTA, they know and expect delays.

Congestion prices won't fix anything.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#203

Post by starspangled »

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #199
starspangled wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About one in every two households in Amsterdam own a car. I would bet many that don't use taxi services themselves now and again, and almost everybody would indirectly rely on roads used for deliveries, workmen, emergency services. And that's about the best case for a European city. It's comparable to New York City. Paris, London, Prague -- higher. The reality is that these romantic notions people have of cities not…

And yet, if you walk around Amsterdam or Rotterdam you see a lot of bicycles and trams and pedestrians, and very few cars. Cars certainly exist, but they are clearly not used by default for everything. Contrast with my recent visit to New Jersey. The hotel was surrounded on all sides by parking lots and multi lane roads). There was no sidewalk.

I haven't walked around those cities, I've walked around certain areas of London or Tokyo as a tourist mostly in central areas that are well serviced by public transport and are very dense, without any real understanding of what it actually takes to live, work, raise children, or anything else in those places. I certainly saw a lot of roads and cars, particularly when looking out the window of trains and busses into actual places people live.

> Cars certainly exist, but they are clearly not used by default for everything.

Sure, I've noticed a bunch of American cities I've been to are a more difficult to walk or get public transport than any big ones in Europe or Asia I've been to.

They're all automobile-centric though. You'll never get rid of cars, taxis, trucks, busses, or roads. Not in any of them. Better walking, riding, and public transport is great, it's just never going to do away with the car, nor is doing away with cars and roads ever going to solve any problems that cities have. There should be more honesty and pragmatism around this.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#204

Post by benhurmarcel »

nwiswell wrote: post #66
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

[flagged]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dHFC31VtQ

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#205

Post by tim333 »

jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

>That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way.

That's because it generally isn't in terms of paying cash subsidies. What happens is that when the city is laid out areas are blocked out for access. Doing that doesn't really cost you anything. In places that get pedestrianised the road space is still there, just used for people rather than cars.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#206

Post by ETH_start »

ventoffreshair wrote: post #202
ETH_start wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congestion pricing means less traffic so the bus can get to your destination faster. Right now there is no incentive to use the bus, so people don't. Everyone drives and everyone is worse off as a result of the greater traffic.

Are you for real? No one, literally no one out of choice travels by the BUS. If people are traveling by the bus, MTA, they know and expect delays. Congestion prices won't fix anything.

A bus ride in a congestion pricing scheme will almost certainly be faster than a car ride in a congestion-pricing-free scheme. The point you're missing is that congestion pricing massively reduces traffic.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#207

Post by wink »

nomel wrote: post #52
buzzy_hacker wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, but critics were literally saying this. Stuff like "it's only $9, people will just ignore that and continue to drive"

To be fair, they were mostly right, since 93% continued to drive. This is commute tax for the wealthy, and a time tax for lower income people. B39 only crosses the bridge, so there's waiting/transfer on both sides. Commute is generally 2-5x more time by public transport there, with all the stops.

I suppose this was tongue in cheek, and I don't live in NYC - but where I live, a single ticket is 4 EUR, so that's 8 EUR there and back. So right now, parking up to a couple hours is already cheaper (if we ignore the wear and tear of driving 20km) per day in the city. If I manage to optimize for the parking price (or can do it for free) - the 9$ would still be a maybe 10% increase, not 'for the wealthy'. And I can imagine several of such scenarios, I guess you are only looking at "person commuting to work 20 days a month and thus paying 180$ extra"

Yes, monthly tickets exist but I've not used one for years because I usually cycle all the time.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#208

Post by [deleted] »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #146
wk_end wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m reading OP’s math correctly, you’ve got it backwards. They’re saying NYC should be in practice making significantly more than $500M/yr.

OP's math doesn't account for the fact that a small fraction of trips into the city are personal vehicles, and many more are cabs/rideshare cars (which pay differently) and trucks making deliveries (which may be exempt). In any case, there is also going to be widespread toll fraud here just like with every other toll in NYC.

[deleted]

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#209

Post by drawkward »

whatever1 wrote: post #67
drawkward wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Citation pending]

For example: https://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/dps/pdfs/dp137810.pdf

Apples and footballs; in NYC, I suspect the poor don't drive in the first place.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#210

Post by [deleted] »

jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

[deleted]
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