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43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

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Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#111

Post by Ar-Curunir »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #107
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Cities have had roads long before there were cars. So many people like to pretend that before "car culture" there were no roads in cities or that before cars there were no big roads. There were huge roads in cities in the 1800s to accommodate carriages, streetcars, and all the extra people on the road because a 5 minute trip by car takes 20 minutes on foot. Cities in 1000 AD had roads, and a lot of them were pretty d…

Cars need a disproportionate amount of space for the number of people that they serve compared to every other means of transport. Bicycles, e-scooters, buses, etc serve many more people per square foot compared to mostly empty cars.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#112

Post by Qwertious »

modeless wrote: post #77
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Roads are useful, but what I really think we should get rid of is parking lots. When cars can drive themselves we should build over all the lots and knock down the garages. The cars can spend the day on the road and the night parked outside the city. There should be zero parked inside the city.

Abolish free parking, and raise prices on the parking meter until the parking spots are only ~80% occupied (if they're less than 80% occupied, lower the price).

If there's not enough parking, let the market fix that problem - if private parking lots are profitable use of land, then people will build them. But people will never be satisfied with private parking lots if they could have used free public parking instead (if they'd just looked harder for a parking spot).

In other words, giving out free shit discourages people from buying that shit. Which really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#113

Post by Ar-Curunir »

dexwiz wrote: post #63
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

How do you propose we handle logistics or emergency vehicles? I’m all for more walkable cities but rip them all up and replace them with what? Rails which are more expensive and less flexible? Pneumatic tube? Even if you switched to single person cargo bikes you would still want dedicated areas for vehicles versus pedestrians.

Other countries just use more space-efficient vehicles.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#114

Post by dymk »

ekianjo wrote: post #76
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Downtown only exists in the first place because roads go there. You know the old saying? All roads lead to Rome. Cities concentrate people and need a lot of resources to be sustainable, and roads are what bring these resources.

You know what those roads originally had on them? Small carriages (see etymology) and foot traffic, not modern cars. It blows my mind that people think cars are necessary for modern cities when the best ones to live have very few or no cars

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#115

Post by epistasis »

vlovich123 wrote: post #56
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

You’re not incorrect per se, but it’s important to note that deliveries into downtown would be important for it to be a thriving destination for shopping, residential or business. Not to mention space for heavy equipment to come in to do repairs and construction. Minimal maintenance corridors may not be enough. You also need public transit options into it as well as transportation solutions for “out of towners” who d…

In Ancient Rome, private vehicles were banned during the first ten hours of the day. Doing the same for nearly all commercial deliveries would make a lot of sense today too. A huge number of delivery trucks are massively oversized and inappropriate for their task. Charging for oversized vehicles might wake some business owners up to more carefully evaluating their costs and making more rational choices. Heavy equipment is easy to permit.

Look at any car-free area and there are very reasonable exceptions to make them function. The important thing is to remove cars as the mandatory way to access locations, and to cease prioritizing cars over more efficient methods of transit. Forcing cars into our cities took a massive amount of changes to our legal and planning system, and huge huge subsidies. Just going back to thinking of cars as one of many ways to get around, rather than as the primary and prioritized method of getting around, would allow for much more efficient systems.

New York City has more than adequate public transportation, except for the private vehicles slowing it down.

SF has adequate public transit, but without all the cars in the way and with higher ridership it would be amazing.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#116

Post by Ar-Curunir »

ekianjo wrote: post #76
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Downtown only exists in the first place because roads go there. You know the old saying? All roads lead to Rome. Cities concentrate people and need a lot of resources to be sustainable, and roads are what bring these resources.

That’s just pure nonsense. Have you been to, like, any major non-American city? People just take public transit, or walk, or, live in downtown

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#117

Post by epistasis »

nwiswell wrote: post #66
jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

[flagged]

There is a happy medium between "cars must come first" and "no trucks ever, even emergency vehicles." There's even the easy happy medium of "no private vehicles during peak times."

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#118

Post by dottjt »

OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: post #49
dottjt wrote: post #40

I think an issue with this kind of policy (not necessarily in Manhattan) but in other cities is that often there is no alternative other than to drive to the city. For example, my partner needs radiation for her cancer and the hospital is located in the city. There is no other option than to drive. I feel like this type of policy negatively affects people in this situation, with no other alternative.

I'm sorry to hear your partner needs cancer treatment. But also, you can still use the roads.

Yeah, but why should one have to pay more to use roads they have no options but to use?

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#119

Post by epistasis »

jefftk wrote: post #8

When I see things like: > Bus speeds also increased after the tolls were turned on. The Manhattan-bound B39 bus, which crosses the Williamsburg Bridge, ran 28% faster compared to a similar January week last year. Other buses like the SIM24 and and the M50 saw increases in speeds, as well. I wonder how much cherry picking there is. Did they give the B39 because it's the most improved? Or for some other reason (especia…

For a lot of systems, what you want to "cherry pick" and focus on are those 90th-percentile outliers, because they cause the most pain.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#120

Post by rodgerd »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #78
jmward01 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can have it. I'd rather amazing transit oriented development and to enjoy the world on my feet than stuck in a box on an ugly road. Done right, cities designed for people are harder to get around by car even with a personal driver.

[flagged]

I am a great deal more risk of being killed by a driver when I walk than I am being murdered on a train.

Especially as Waymo program their death machines to blow through pedestrians at crossings 70% of the time.

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