A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper • Hacker News Board

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#111

Post by davidodio » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #96

yoavm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's a marketing stunt, but often recycling is more expensive. I mean, recycling a plastic bag is probably more expensive than making one. The unfortunate reality of our financial system is that it often rewards people for doing the wrong thing.

If recycling is more expensive, isn't recycling the wrong thing? The price isn't some random number attached to an activity. It captures the various costs associated with it and is helpful in directing behaviors for this very reason. Recycling is more expensive, it likely means that there are associated costs (e.g. transportation, sorting, cleaning, processing, etc) that make it less economical than just throwing it…

“Costs” often ignore externalities like environmental damage and inequality. Landfilling or dumping plastic may be cheaper now, but it shifts the true cost — centuries of pollution —onto vulnerable communities today. There is a reason the clothing dumps are in Ghana and Chile, rather than wealthier nations like the US or Germany.

If the price to companies profiting from plastics included exteralities I could possibly agree with you but as it stands these costs are normally paid by disadvantaged individuals or marginalized ecosystems.

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#112

Post by yathern » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 6:53 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #96

yoavm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's a marketing stunt, but often recycling is more expensive. I mean, recycling a plastic bag is probably more expensive than making one. The unfortunate reality of our financial system is that it often rewards people for doing the wrong thing.

If recycling is more expensive, isn't recycling the wrong thing? The price isn't some random number attached to an activity. It captures the various costs associated with it and is helpful in directing behaviors for this very reason. Recycling is more expensive, it likely means that there are associated costs (e.g. transportation, sorting, cleaning, processing, etc) that make it less economical than just throwing it…

Your way of thinking definitely isn't entirely incorrect, and I think a lot of times people forget that prices, while they can certainly have an arbitrary component, are largely driven by market forces, which at the very least will tell you something about the supply and demand of a product. However, I disagree with this:

> And all these additional costs likely make it the "wrong" decision since they likely contribute to carbon emissions or otherwise wasteful use of the earth's resources

I think this doesn't often hold true, yes, an efficient market begets economically efficient resource allocation, but there's more to environmentalism than efficient resource allocation. Your example is good, it's certainly more economically efficient to use less petroleum when transporting goods, and that efficiency can be reflected in final costs. But let's look at another example:

Say you're buying lumber to build a house. There's a local lumber farm that sustainably grows and cuts down trees. Since its close, transportation costs (and associated emissions) are low - largely coming from amortized land costs and labor. However there's another company that buys cheap land from farmers in the Amazon, with cheaper labor, ships it up via freight, and sells it for marginally cheaper. The costs in the latter example are largely driven by transportation - and while cheaper, has a significantly larger carbon impact.

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#113

Post by brudgers » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 6:54 PM UTC

calmbonsai wrote: post #78

I'm reminded of similarly useless "sustainable cardboard furniture" that came out about a decade ago. On the positive side, kudos to whomever in marketing/pr at the design firm got this useless product so much press. This is just the sort of "win" that a design consulting shop loves to have for actual briefs that lead to real moving-the-needle revenue. One example would be SmartDesign's modular slip-on "S-Grips" that…

Cardboard furniture brought to mind Frank Gehry:

https://www.vitra.com/en-us/product/wiggle?srsltid=AfmBOooT-...

Expressing patronage of sustainability is emotionally equivalent to expressing patronage of artistry. Functionally a $10 chair from Goodwill will support a person equally well (and also be an expression of patronage for a person with options).

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#114

Post by dowager_dan99 » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 6:55 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #98

yoavm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's a marketing stunt, but often recycling is more expensive. I mean, recycling a plastic bag is probably more expensive than making one. The unfortunate reality of our financial system is that it often rewards people for doing the wrong thing.

Recycling a plastic bag is not necessarily better for the environment than burning it.

good point, and countries that do this on a massive (clean) scale count it (probably correctly) in their efficiency and non-fossil fuel stats. We really under-report the cost ($$$ and energy) of the full recycling chain, both complicated parts like plastics that should probably be burned and capture/treat the results, and simple things like glass; other than reuse it should NOT be recycled.

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#115

Post by rvense » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 6:55 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #96

yoavm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's a marketing stunt, but often recycling is more expensive. I mean, recycling a plastic bag is probably more expensive than making one. The unfortunate reality of our financial system is that it often rewards people for doing the wrong thing.

If recycling is more expensive, isn't recycling the wrong thing? The price isn't some random number attached to an activity. It captures the various costs associated with it and is helpful in directing behaviors for this very reason. Recycling is more expensive, it likely means that there are associated costs (e.g. transportation, sorting, cleaning, processing, etc) that make it less economical than just throwing it…

Most of the toothbrushes we've owned in our lives still exist. What is the cost of having them around still? I don't know, but I know it wasn't factored in at all when we bought them.

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#116

Post by yoavm » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 6:56 PM UTC

dowager_dan99 wrote: post #110

yoavm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's a marketing stunt, but often recycling is more expensive. I mean, recycling a plastic bag is probably more expensive than making one. The unfortunate reality of our financial system is that it often rewards people for doing the wrong thing.

not really for paper though... We've largely solved efficient recycling of even complex mixed paper/plastic/coatings, a piece like this should be less expensive, and not shipped 1/2 way around the world to a market that has massive amounts of both new and old paper.

I didn't mean to imply that the price for this specific laptop stand is justified. I read the above comment as a small rant about how expensive recycled things are, and wanted to add that sometimes it is for a good reason. Not always, and like others have mentioned, the plastic bag example might not have been the best one.

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#117

Post by snowfarthing » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 7:00 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #83

latexr wrote: post #47

The article is seemingly outdated. The cheapest one I could find in the store was 29 USD. In Euros, it’s 36.37. And of course, you still have to pay for shipping. From Korea. This seems quite absurd. Whatever good you do the planet by using something out of recycled paper (thumbs up on the idea) will surely be offset by all the logistics of the shipping. This should have been a tutorial, not a product.

I often see "recycled" or similar as a signal for more expensive. My favorite was when I saw a jam that touted "upcycled" strawberries. When I looked into it, it basically meant that it was made from beat up ugly strawberries that would have been used for animal feed. Surely there would be cost savings in using reject fruit, right? No, an 8oz jar retails for over $8 compared to about half that to an organic no sugar…

I find this particular notion to be rather weird. I cannot see how it's a "waste" if something's fed to animals instead of humans!

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#118

Post by snowfarthing » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 7:03 PM UTC

dowager_dan99 wrote: post #114

adrianN wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recycling a plastic bag is not necessarily better for the environment than burning it.

good point, and countries that do this on a massive (clean) scale count it (probably correctly) in their efficiency and non-fossil fuel stats. We really under-report the cost ($$$ and energy) of the full recycling chain, both complicated parts like plastics that should probably be burned and capture/treat the results, and simple things like glass; other than reuse it should NOT be recycled.

I have concluded, as a general rule of thumb, that if something costs more to recycle than to produce naturally, it is probably more harmful to the environment to recycle it than to create it fresh and dispose of it properly.

There are certain exceptions to this -- nickel cadmium batteries come to mind -- but for things like this, the question isn't "is it more economic to produce it new than to recycle it?" so much as it's "is it more economic to recycle it than to dispose of it properly?"

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#119

Post by thomassmith65 » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 7:05 PM UTC

d--b wrote: post #25

Wow, such a bad vibe here! It's foldable. It's light. It's made of recycled material. It's cheap enough. Seems pretty smart to me.

It does not appeal to me, but each passing year there are fewer and fewer new consumer products that do appeal to me. Actually, I think this product captures the spirit of the times: a $20 piece of paper that presumably falls apart after a year – a 'laptop stand as a service'

Re: A laptop stand made from a single sheet of recycled paper

#120

Post by murderfs » Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 7:12 PM UTC

davidodio wrote: post #111

bko wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If recycling is more expensive, isn't recycling the wrong thing? The price isn't some random number attached to an activity. It captures the various costs associated with it and is helpful in directing behaviors for this very reason. Recycling is more expensive, it likely means that there are associated costs (e.g. transportation, sorting, cleaning, processing, etc) that make it less economical than just throwing it…

“Costs” often ignore externalities like environmental damage and inequality. Landfilling or dumping plastic may be cheaper now, but it shifts the true cost — centuries of pollution —onto vulnerable communities today. There is a reason the clothing dumps are in Ghana and Chile, rather than wealthier nations like the US or Germany. If the price to companies profiting from plastics included exteralities I could possibly…

The reason the clothing dumps exist is greenwashing. If we weren't pretending that reusing clothing is meaningful to the environment, we'd just burn the clothing locally.