Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

blog.yossarian.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 347 posts

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#31

Post by sumanthvepa »

mattbillenstein wrote: post #15

I think Makefile is maybe the wrong analogy - the problem with most people and makefiles is they write so few of them, the general idea of what make does is at hand, but the muscle memory of how to do it from scratch is not. But, point taken - I've seen so much code copy-pasta'd from the web, there will be like a bunch of dead stuff in it that's actually not used. A good practice here is to keep deleting stuff until…

This is exactly the problem I face with many tools, Makefiles, KVM setups, docker configurations, CI/CD pipelines. My solution so far has been to create a separate repository with all my notes, shell script example programs etc, for these tool, libraries or frameworks. Every time I have to use these tools, I refer to my notes to refresh my memory, and if I learn something new in the process, I update the notes. I can even point an LLM at it now and ask it questions.

The repository is personal, and contains info on tools that are publicly available.

I keep organisation specific knowledge in a similar but separate repo, which I discard when my tenure with a client or employer ends.

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#32

Post by sebazzz »

mianos wrote: post #29

I have an alternate theory: about 10% of developers can actually start something from scratch because they truly understand how things work (not that they always do it, but they could if needed). Another 40% can get the daily job done by copying and pasting code from local sources, Stack Overflow, GitHub, or an LLM—while kinda knowing what’s going on. That leaves 50% who don’t really know much beyond a few LeetCode p…

> That leaves 50% who don’t really know much beyond a few LeetCode puzzles and have no real grasp of what they’re copying and pasting.

Who likely wouldn't have a job if it weren't for LLMs.

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#33

Post by ido »

bluocms wrote: post #30

This only happens because people treat build code at a lower standard than app code. IMO you should treat all code with the same rigour. From build scripts to app code to test code. Why write hacks in build tools when you wouldn’t do in your app code. We build tool code with the same quality as the app code. That’s why most tooling we use are written in typescript: type safety, code reuse…

I would argue the main reason is that Make is just bad. There are easier to use alternatives such as scons or rake that don't have this effect applied to them.

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#34

Post by nayuki »

I see this effect in Java Maven pom.xml files. It's hard to get a straightforward answer on why each build step is needed, what each attribute means, what parts are optional or mandatory, etc. There seems to be a culture of copying these XML files and tweaking a few things without truly understanding what the whole file means. I briefly looked at Ant and Gradle, and their ecosystems don't look any better. The build configuration files seem to have too much unexplainable magic in them.

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#35

Post by smitty1e »

What is the counter-example?

We recycle known good stuff to avoid getting bogged down and introducing fresh flaws.

The admonition to know what we're doing and act deliberately applies to so much in life, but flies in the face of Milton Friedman's point in "I, Pencil" => https://youtu.be/67tHtpac5ws?si=yhheE1Y5ELfjWXs-

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#37

Post by donatj »

bboygravity wrote: post #18
donatj wrote: post #6

If I had a nickel for every time I have seen a Makefile straight up copied from other projects and modified to "work" while leaving completely unrelated unnecessary build steps and targets in place. It's a major pet peeve of mine.

How do you know what is and isn't related if nothing is documented? Trial and error? Well have fun with that :p

Exactly. Bonus points if the person who started the project moved on and you have to be the one to build and maintain it.

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#38

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

nayuki wrote: post #34

I see this effect in Java Maven pom.xml files. It's hard to get a straightforward answer on why each build step is needed, what each attribute means, what parts are optional or mandatory, etc. There seems to be a culture of copying these XML files and tweaking a few things without truly understanding what the whole file means. I briefly looked at Ant and Gradle, and their ecosystems don't look any better. The build c…

Imo, the only solution is to avoid boilerplate generators and the parent poms projects like spring boot use for things like pom files: you can look at the boilerplate to get ideas for what might be necessary, but, if you’re starting a project, write the pom yourself. It’s a pain the first couple times, but it gets easier to know what you need.

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#39

Post by sharkjacobs »

nicoburns wrote: post #20
ratmeadow wrote: post #7

At my work I've noticed another contributing factor: tools/systems that devs need to interact with at some point, but otherwise provide little perceived value to learn day-to-day. Example is build system and CI configuration. We absolutely need these but devs don't think they should be expected to deal with them day to day. CI is perceived as a system that should be "set and forget", like yeah we need it but really I…

For me the big problems with CI setups tend to be: - They're often slow - They're often proprietary - They're often dealing with secrets which limits who can work on them - You generally can't run them locally So the feedback cycle for working on them is incredibly long. And working on them is therefore a massive pain.

> You generally can't run them locally

I recognize that this is such a disincentive for me taking the initiative to fiddle with and learn about anything like this

Re: Be Aware of the Makefile Effect

#40

Post by rockwotj »

nayuki wrote: post #34

I see this effect in Java Maven pom.xml files. It's hard to get a straightforward answer on why each build step is needed, what each attribute means, what parts are optional or mandatory, etc. There seems to be a culture of copying these XML files and tweaking a few things without truly understanding what the whole file means. I briefly looked at Ant and Gradle, and their ecosystems don't look any better. The build c…

Honestly for Java I really like Bazel. You should give it a shot. I have a project with a self contained jvm and jars from maven central. Its more explicit than the other options but way less magical IMO.
Post reply on HN