Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is. • Hacker News Board

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#121

Post by BSousa » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 1:07 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #119

BSousa wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would tell her to F- off if it was in my legal right to take the time off. I know my wife would do the same. I still don't understand how people still think 130 hour week, or working through paternity/vacation time is acceptable. I could understand if it was their own company, but for someone else? Really? Do you care so much about money/work status/climbing up the work ladder that you would put your own personal l…

I meant, coming back from a 3 month leave, and having your first week be a mandatory 80 hr overtime week. Ok you've taken your time off. You are back now. You have a 3-month-old at home. You are expected to be here for 120 hours this week. take it or quit. I bet women are far more likely to quit.

At the risk of repeating my self, the F- Off would still stand.

It is illegal to 'threaten' someone like that here. Sure, many people would cave and do it and that's why many employers still have this stupid mentality, but taking in account the law is on my side, I would repeat the F- Off, and if fired, I would sue until I would get my job back and some nice pocket money to go on holiday with my family :)

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#122

Post by jchrisa » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 2:52 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #112

BSousa wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hell it is! I'm 29, father of a 2.5 months boy. I work at a start up that is doing quite ok. I took 20 days paternity leave when my kid was born plus a week paid vacation. I'm taking an extra month paternity leave as well in a month. Another colleague (male) is having a baby on the 27th this month, he'll do exactly the same. I hardly work more than 40 hours a week (sometimes I get a call on Sunday to fix an impor…

If your son had been born during a death march would you have considered trying to push the leave around a bit so as not to further burden your colleagues? I have known men at financial services firms for example, who came in for a week during paternity leave to help out with a PCI audit, or took leave a week late because they were not replaceable quickly for an on-site visit with a consultant.

My version of that was taking an afternoon to edit the wiki from home one day when my first daughter was born. (I took a few weeks off, then worked from home for a few more weeks).

And I'm a co-founder. People really do overwork themselves (myself included). The most important thing is to make sure you spend your time well. If that means sitting around for a week doing as little as possible, in between busting ass on the important stuff when it comes along, by all means it's more productive to chill out for a bit.

Part of the reason I took so long away when my daughter was born, was to set an example in the company that we can be more productive if we treat ourselves well.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#123

Post by bherms » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 3:24 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #88

bherms wrote: post #86

As a guy in tech, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Dave has said, and was surprised he said it in an actually non-offensive way, given his typical writing style.. However, something I took away from this that really surprised me was how little money Dave started with and how little he still has. Don't get me wrong, I would kill to have $300k in the bank, much less $600k+, but I've always assumed that angel inve…

The problem is, you do need to be a millionaire to be an angel investor. IF not you open your investments up to liability unless you really are "friends and family". This industry is regulated and McClure sorta completely glossed over it. I would be an angel investor if I was allowed. I would have been doing it for the past 4 years, and I would have much enjoyed doing that. I had 6 figures and 20 years of startup exp…

I actually do believe the law changed recently.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/04/...

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#124

Post by saraid216 » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 3:51 PM UTC

spindritf wrote: post #107

saraid216 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a problem. The problem is that people believe nursing is supposed to be a woman's job, and that a male nurse is thus unmanly for freely choosing to become one. These beliefs are wrong. They are sexist. Full stop. An indicator of the prevalence of these beliefs is the dominance of women in the nursing profession. This is hard, factual, statistical data that we can point to; it's easier to parse than qualita…

> These beliefs are wrong. Those are value judgements, they cannot be "wrong". You can judge them as wrong, but that's just one value judgement on top of another. There is no way to even hold a discussion between them on that ground. > An indicator of the prevalence of these beliefs is the dominance of women in the nursing profession. This is hard, factual, statistical data that we can point to This is hard, factual,…

> Those are value judgements, they cannot be "wrong".

Uh, of course it's a value judgement. That's the entire point of calling out sexism.

Do you disagree that they're sexist, or do you disagree that a sexist belief is wrong?

> This is hard, factual, statistical data that doesn't support your conclusion.

I'm pretty sure I said that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I spent two entire paragraphs on that.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#125

Post by saraid216 » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 3:56 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #104

saraid216 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bigger question in my mind is how we solve that structural problem. Agreed. But I don't think that's a battle worth fighting just in the tech industry. There are rights for women that can be fought for in general: better protections against sexual harassment, better requirements for maternity (and paternity) leaves, etc. (Google found me this: http://www.now.org/issues/wfw/empledge.html ) Tech could strive to b…

What about a basic shift from a company-as-machine model to a company-as-ecosystem model? It seems to me that a standard company is a bit like a standard vegetable garden, highly ordered to the detriment of long- and even short-term productivity. A better approach might be to create companies where family life and work life don't have to be separate, where you can still put in that 130 hour work week from home, takin…

> What about a basic shift from a company-as-machine model to a company-as-ecosystem model?

Replace "company" with "society" and you have a deal. If you want to start at the company level, that makes sense to me; I'd argue that most startups are, by necessity, run according to an ecosystem model.

> Those things you mention strike me as band-aids.

I am not, unfortunately, a political genius and my suggestions are not the best possible. If something better and actionable comes along, I am more than happy to back it.

But asking 300 million people, let alone 7 billion, to "rethink the way we" do anything is a fairly gargantuan task. Some of us have already changed our minds. Others will need convincing. Still others will not be convinced.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#126

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 5:21 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #109

InclinedPlane wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an illustration of the problem. Look, working crazy hours is absolutely, positively NOT in any way a requirement for success in the tech industry. It's not even a very good way to get work done. But it is commonplace. And it is taken as a shibboleth within this industry. And it does exclude people, especially women but others as well. What do you tell a talented 28 year old woman who is thinking about st…

It's a requirement for an engineering position in a technology start-up, which is a prerequisite for the top-tier success. As for what to tell a 28 year old man. Most of them recognize that they may have to take their paternity leave late, or only take the minimum. But the fact that this is an option places the 28 year old man in a very different position than the 28 year old woman. As for the crazy hours deal, I can…

I can imagine many women pressuring their husbands to take that deal though

Mostly the ones who don't want him around. If I worked anything near those hours on a consistent basis, my wife would divorce me. And I wouldn't blame her!

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#127

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #119

BSousa wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would tell her to F- off if it was in my legal right to take the time off. I know my wife would do the same. I still don't understand how people still think 130 hour week, or working through paternity/vacation time is acceptable. I could understand if it was their own company, but for someone else? Really? Do you care so much about money/work status/climbing up the work ladder that you would put your own personal l…

I meant, coming back from a 3 month leave, and having your first week be a mandatory 80 hr overtime week. Ok you've taken your time off. You are back now. You have a 3-month-old at home. You are expected to be here for 120 hours this week. take it or quit. I bet women are far more likely to quit.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that many men simply don't find that acceptable?

I've left work in the middle of the day because my wife was hurt, or not feeling well. I've taken off time simply to take her to the doctor for "moral support" even though she was quite capable of going by herself. Either of us will take a kid to the doctor depending on who it's most convenient for.

It's not the 50's anymore. Most people with good relationships want to spend time together. I don't give a rat's ass if I get 30,50,100 million in 20 years for working ridiculous hours now. I could be dead by then. Right now I want to spend time with my family and that's worth giving up a lot of money for.