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Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

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Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#111

Post by BSousa »

einhverfr wrote: post #109
InclinedPlane wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an illustration of the problem. Look, working crazy hours is absolutely, positively NOT in any way a requirement for success in the tech industry. It's not even a very good way to get work done. But it is commonplace. And it is taken as a shibboleth within this industry. And it does exclude people, especially women but others as well. What do you tell a talented 28 year old woman who is thinking about st…

It's a requirement for an engineering position in a technology start-up, which is a prerequisite for the top-tier success. As for what to tell a 28 year old man. Most of them recognize that they may have to take their paternity leave late, or only take the minimum. But the fact that this is an option places the 28 year old man in a very different position than the 28 year old woman. As for the crazy hours deal, I can…

The hell it is!

I'm 29, father of a 2.5 months boy. I work at a start up that is doing quite ok.

I took 20 days paternity leave when my kid was born plus a week paid vacation. I'm taking an extra month paternity leave as well in a month. Another colleague (male) is having a baby on the 27th this month, he'll do exactly the same.

I hardly work more than 40 hours a week (sometimes I get a call on Sunday to fix an important issue or something, but not regularly). I don't trade work hours (even if it includes pay) for time spent with my kid. I just don't. And you know what? I'm not shunned for it by my boss. Hell, during my wife's pregnancy, I had to take a lot of time off and work a part of it from home and he was actually proud I was putting my family first.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#112

Post by einhverfr »

BSousa wrote: post #111
einhverfr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a requirement for an engineering position in a technology start-up, which is a prerequisite for the top-tier success. As for what to tell a 28 year old man. Most of them recognize that they may have to take their paternity leave late, or only take the minimum. But the fact that this is an option places the 28 year old man in a very different position than the 28 year old woman. As for the crazy hours deal, I can…

The hell it is! I'm 29, father of a 2.5 months boy. I work at a start up that is doing quite ok. I took 20 days paternity leave when my kid was born plus a week paid vacation. I'm taking an extra month paternity leave as well in a month. Another colleague (male) is having a baby on the 27th this month, he'll do exactly the same. I hardly work more than 40 hours a week (sometimes I get a call on Sunday to fix an impor…

If your son had been born during a death march would you have considered trying to push the leave around a bit so as not to further burden your colleagues?

I have known men at financial services firms for example, who came in for a week during paternity leave to help out with a PCI audit, or took leave a week late because they were not replaceable quickly for an on-site visit with a consultant.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#113

Post by InclinedPlane »

einhverfr wrote: post #112
BSousa wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hell it is! I'm 29, father of a 2.5 months boy. I work at a start up that is doing quite ok. I took 20 days paternity leave when my kid was born plus a week paid vacation. I'm taking an extra month paternity leave as well in a month. Another colleague (male) is having a baby on the 27th this month, he'll do exactly the same. I hardly work more than 40 hours a week (sometimes I get a call on Sunday to fix an impor…

If your son had been born during a death march would you have considered trying to push the leave around a bit so as not to further burden your colleagues? I have known men at financial services firms for example, who came in for a week during paternity leave to help out with a PCI audit, or took leave a week late because they were not replaceable quickly for an on-site visit with a consultant.

If you are working at a company where death marches are the normal development process you've got a lot bigger problems than being able to find the time for paternity leave. Run, run away from that job as fast as you can. There are tons of companies out there, even startups, hiring devs who won't work them to death.

I'm a bit disappointed that the state of this industry is still so immature. We've had all of these studies and all of this wisdom from experienced high-caliber devs on the best ways to go about developing software (and none of them include death marches) and yet here we are still bumbling around and fucking it up and folks like you have the audacity to call it not only normal but proper and expected.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#114

Post by BSousa »

einhverfr wrote: post #112
BSousa wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hell it is! I'm 29, father of a 2.5 months boy. I work at a start up that is doing quite ok. I took 20 days paternity leave when my kid was born plus a week paid vacation. I'm taking an extra month paternity leave as well in a month. Another colleague (male) is having a baby on the 27th this month, he'll do exactly the same. I hardly work more than 40 hours a week (sometimes I get a call on Sunday to fix an impor…

If your son had been born during a death march would you have considered trying to push the leave around a bit so as not to further burden your colleagues? I have known men at financial services firms for example, who came in for a week during paternity leave to help out with a PCI audit, or took leave a week late because they were not replaceable quickly for an on-site visit with a consultant.

No I wouldn't. I took all the time the law allowed me, and if I could have taken more, I would.

During paternity leave I only 'worked' one and a half day. And it was a special case that had nothing to do with work per se. I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a prestigious university here so I talked with my wife and she spent the day with my kid for me to prepare for it and then half day while I did it.

Only reason I did it was because I had already agreed to before hand (kid was born 2 weeks before expected) and it was a great opportunity for me. But if it was a week long affair, I would have cancelled it on the spot. I just don't care about money/career enough to miss important time with my son or help my wife out.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#115

Post by einhverfr »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #113
einhverfr wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your son had been born during a death march would you have considered trying to push the leave around a bit so as not to further burden your colleagues? I have known men at financial services firms for example, who came in for a week during paternity leave to help out with a PCI audit, or took leave a week late because they were not replaceable quickly for an on-site visit with a consultant.

If you are working at a company where death marches are the normal development process you've got a lot bigger problems than being able to find the time for paternity leave. Run, run away from that job as fast as you can. There are tons of companies out there, even startups, hiring devs who won't work them to death. I'm a bit disappointed that the state of this industry is still so immature. We've had all of these st…

I think there is a major reason why there are death marches.

You promise stakeholders and customers that a product will be ready to ship by a certain date. These things are very easy to underestimate. So in the end you have lots of extra bugs to fix, and you have a huge amount of tension between releasing the (buggy) software on time, letting the delivery date slip, and putting in whatever it takes to release something of acceptable quality on time.

Moreover pre-hyping releases is an incredibly easy way to get a lot of publicity for your product, so it is very common.

So the fundamental issue is marketing, and everything cascades from there. But even if it isn't a normal part of development at your firm, if it happened because something major was discovered last minute and required a lot of work, would you have considered postponing your paternity leave?

Compare this to biotech. Here you have elaborate licensing and safety studies (of dubious effectiveness these days) which occur between the initial product development and its release to market. If Novo Nordisk comes up with a new drug tomorrow, they can't even estimate a release date because of all the regulatory stuff that comes with it. So this slows the march to production down and prevents death marches.

So I think the issue with death marches is that they happen, not as a function of or product development, but as a function of PR and marketing, which leads to pre-hyping a specified day of release, and if you let it slip too much, you lose out on all that built-up hype.

So I am not saying they should be normal. I am saying they are systemic, and expected particularly in a start-up phase of a business.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#116

Post by einhverfr »

BSousa wrote: post #114
einhverfr wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your son had been born during a death march would you have considered trying to push the leave around a bit so as not to further burden your colleagues? I have known men at financial services firms for example, who came in for a week during paternity leave to help out with a PCI audit, or took leave a week late because they were not replaceable quickly for an on-site visit with a consultant.

No I wouldn't. I took all the time the law allowed me, and if I could have taken more, I would. During paternity leave I only 'worked' one and a half day. And it was a special case that had nothing to do with work per se. I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a prestigious university here so I talked with my wife and she spent the day with my kid for me to prepare for it and then half day while I did it. Only reaso…

How would you respond, being the father of a 3 month old, to being asked by Marissa Mayer to put in a 130 hour week because it was really important?

How do you think a mother would respond? Do you see a difference?

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#117

Post by BSousa »

einhverfr wrote: post #116
BSousa wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I wouldn't. I took all the time the law allowed me, and if I could have taken more, I would. During paternity leave I only 'worked' one and a half day. And it was a special case that had nothing to do with work per se. I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a prestigious university here so I talked with my wife and she spent the day with my kid for me to prepare for it and then half day while I did it. Only reaso…

How would you respond, being the father of a 3 month old, to being asked by Marissa Mayer to put in a 130 hour week because it was really important? How do you think a mother would respond? Do you see a difference?

I would tell her to F- off if it was in my legal right to take the time off.

I know my wife would do the same.

I still don't understand how people still think 130 hour week, or working through paternity/vacation time is acceptable. I could understand if it was their own company, but for someone else? Really? Do you care so much about money/work status/climbing up the work ladder that you would put your own personal life on hold?

ps: maybe I'm a bit off the tech name world, but if it wasn't for HN I would have no idea who Marissa Mayer was, and to be honest, I'm sure in 5 days when it leaves HN I won't remember her name.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#118

Post by [deleted] »

saraid216 wrote: post #93
waterlesscloud wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire conversation has been said 100 times. It's interesting how the original article throws something at least kinda new into the mix, but this whole thread just heads right back to the same old grounds.

That's because it's not new. Read the comments on the original article. If a magic solution was enough, it would have been fixed already and no one would bother talking about the non-issue.

[deleted]

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#119

Post by einhverfr »

BSousa wrote: post #117
einhverfr wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you respond, being the father of a 3 month old, to being asked by Marissa Mayer to put in a 130 hour week because it was really important? How do you think a mother would respond? Do you see a difference?

I would tell her to F- off if it was in my legal right to take the time off. I know my wife would do the same. I still don't understand how people still think 130 hour week, or working through paternity/vacation time is acceptable. I could understand if it was their own company, but for someone else? Really? Do you care so much about money/work status/climbing up the work ladder that you would put your own personal l…

I meant, coming back from a 3 month leave, and having your first week be a mandatory 80 hr overtime week.

Ok you've taken your time off. You are back now. You have a 3-month-old at home. You are expected to be here for 120 hours this week. take it or quit.

I bet women are far more likely to quit.

Re: Women in Tech: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

#120

Post by InclinedPlane »

einhverfr wrote: post #116
BSousa wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I wouldn't. I took all the time the law allowed me, and if I could have taken more, I would. During paternity leave I only 'worked' one and a half day. And it was a special case that had nothing to do with work per se. I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a prestigious university here so I talked with my wife and she spent the day with my kid for me to prepare for it and then half day while I did it. Only reaso…

How would you respond, being the father of a 3 month old, to being asked by Marissa Mayer to put in a 130 hour week because it was really important? How do you think a mother would respond? Do you see a difference?

Look, if you have a job that forces you to work 80 hours a week or 130 hours a week and it's not your choice, you have a shitty job. Period. Go find another one. The only time I've ever had to work even close to that much was when I was doing data entry at piece work rates and even then it was not that much.
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