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How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

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Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#51

Post by lwat »

latch wrote: post #40
lwat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any wheat and any potatoes according to people like Gary Taubes. Sweet potatoes are probably better than regular spuds. Wheat and potatoes are mostly just carbohydrates which, as explained in the video we're discussing, should be reduced. There's no such thing as an 'essential carbohydrate' and all other vitamins and minerals in potatoes and wheat can also be found in more than sufficient quantities in 'good' foods l…

This is where I find Dr. Ludwig's work interesting. My understanding is that you can't just look at nutrients individually. For example, a carbohydrate eaten in a highly processed form is digested, substantially different, at a chemical level, than carbohydrates eaten with fiber. I don't doubt that carbohydrate consumption has gone up and with it, suspiciously, so too has obesity. But I can't help but think we should…

No, most experts agree that sugars are worse than the carbs in potatoes or rice.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#52

Post by sandGorgon »

enjo wrote: post #43
schultkl wrote: post #37

I defer to Walter C. Willet, M.D., who writes in "Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy" (co-developed with the Harvard School of Public Health): "There's no question that two types of fat -- saturated fat, the kind that's abundant in whole milk or red meat, and trans fats, which are found in many margarines and vegetable shortenings -- contribute to the artery-clogging process that leads to heart disease, stroke, and other pro…

The more interesting debate is about overall health outcomes. Even the most ardent low-cholestrol folks are forced to admit that this link between higher LDL (particularly the big "fluffy" stuff) and heart disease exists. There are two really interesting things, however. 1. The link between dietary saturated fats and increased LDL isn't nearly as strong as those earlier studies suggest. This is certainly supported by…

Even the most ardent low-cholestrol folks are forced to admit that this link between higher LDL (particularly the big "fluffy" stuff) and heart disease exists

I'm not a researcher, but I have been hanging around /r/advancedfitness a lot. What I seemed to understand is that the ratio of triglycerides to LDL to HDL is what is an indicator of heart disease.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#53

Post by latch »

rubashov wrote: post #41
latch wrote: post #36

While it's really interesting to debate whether you should eat potatoes or beef, the real battle for the western world is that we stop eating processed foods. Wheat vs eggs seems like a silly debate when people are living off of Coke, Oreos and Capt'N Crunch. Whenever I hear these arguments, I feel like these scientists aren't living in the same world as me. "Eggs are ok, declare scientists" reads the headline while…

> people who favor fruits and vegetables, grains and legumes over beef, pork and fatty foods are healthier I have two eyes and that doesn't square at all. The fat people eat packaged food and restaurant food, which are very skimpy on meat and real animal fat. The main thing I notice about fat people is they eat very often. Thin people eat moderate meals and don't snack. Fat people continuously have handfuls of crap l…

If nothing else, we agree that processed foods are the real problem. Maybe people who eat fruits, vegetables and legumes are simply more likely to avoid eating processed foods.

I will challenge you on your last point. You seriously see a lot of fat people eating fruits and soy?!

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#54

Post by rubashov »

latch wrote: post #53
rubashov wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who favor fruits and vegetables, grains and legumes over beef, pork and fatty foods are healthier I have two eyes and that doesn't square at all. The fat people eat packaged food and restaurant food, which are very skimpy on meat and real animal fat. The main thing I notice about fat people is they eat very often. Thin people eat moderate meals and don't snack. Fat people continuously have handfuls of crap l…

If nothing else, we agree that processed foods are the real problem. Maybe people who eat fruits, vegetables and legumes are simply more likely to avoid eating processed foods. I will challenge you on your last point. You seriously see a lot of fat people eating fruits and soy?!

Absolutely. Fat white people in desk jobs eat handfuls of soy loaded trail mix in the afternoon, and an apple an hour before lunch. It's SWPL emotional eating.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#55

Post by MBlume »

latch wrote: post #36

While it's really interesting to debate whether you should eat potatoes or beef, the real battle for the western world is that we stop eating processed foods. Wheat vs eggs seems like a silly debate when people are living off of Coke, Oreos and Capt'N Crunch. Whenever I hear these arguments, I feel like these scientists aren't living in the same world as me. "Eggs are ok, declare scientists" reads the headline while…

I'll bet you that the people you've observed live in the US, and we have really crappy beef here.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#56

Post by mamp »

blueSky1989 wrote: post #13

Twelve years ago I had read too many peer-reviewed papers to know that low-cholesterol diets were a bad idea, and useless from the point of view of having a good blood-cholesterol profile. Useless because, for example, population study after population study showed that low-cholesterol diets did not improve blood-cholesterol. Furthermore, it was common to find populations with high-cholesterol diets that had an excel…

This kind of thinking is simply not medically correct. The idea that eating a will lead to increase in b and then improve all these functions has no basis in evidence. The body is way more complex and the relationships between different proteins etc. is very complex and not well understood, yes, even despite all the work on micro-arrays and rapid DNA sequencing.

High blood cholesterol for example, has a large endogenous component, which is why statins work. It would be nice if the body was simpler and obeyed simple rules of cause and effect. But it's very complex and simple thinking like this aren't based in fact.

Trust me. I'm a doctor :-)

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#57

Post by DenisM »

latch wrote: post #36

While it's really interesting to debate whether you should eat potatoes or beef, the real battle for the western world is that we stop eating processed foods. Wheat vs eggs seems like a silly debate when people are living off of Coke, Oreos and Capt'N Crunch. Whenever I hear these arguments, I feel like these scientists aren't living in the same world as me. "Eggs are ok, declare scientists" reads the headline while…

Plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

"Fruit and veggie eaters" being healthier is just as likely to be a confirmation bias on your part, that you simply not paying attention to contrary examples. But even if it was true and there was a correlation, there is another possible explanation for it:

People who are obsessed with health will do "X" and they will eat fruits and veggies, because both are believed to be good. "X" does a lot of good, while F&V does nothing at all. Since you don't pay attention to "X", not even knowing what it is, you come to conclusion that F&V are good, while in fact "X" is what decides who is healthy.

The point here is be careful with "I do have two eyes...".

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#58

Post by rubashov »

user49598 wrote: post #34

I believe it coincided with converting to a nearly sedentary culture. Nothing is as bad for you as being sedentary and since many/most people refuse to exercise, and you can't buy exercise pills (let alone get people to take them), you have to get people to want to cut down on the stuff their body isn't using. Cholesterol isn't bad, saturated fat isn't bad, but if you're sitting around all day festering so are they.…

> Cholesterol isn't bad, saturated fat isn't bad

The issue gets super complicated once you add chronic emotional stress. A huge problem with all these dietary disease models is they ignore cortisol and stress levels, which may ultimately turn out to be the single-most important variable.

In short, the original findings to do with fat intake -> cholesterol -> atherosclerosis weren't outright invalid. It's just that in healthy, unstressed people the final link to atherosclerosis doesn't actually happen, even in old age. But the situation in the industrialized world is massive numbers of people living in chronic stress, so who knows. Turns out chronically elevated cortisol levels produces the arterial damage that make "bad" cholesterol a problem at all.

Re: How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us?

#59

Post by ramses »

blueSky1989 wrote: post #13

Twelve years ago I had read too many peer-reviewed papers to know that low-cholesterol diets were a bad idea, and useless from the point of view of having a good blood-cholesterol profile. Useless because, for example, population study after population study showed that low-cholesterol diets did not improve blood-cholesterol. Furthermore, it was common to find populations with high-cholesterol diets that had an excel…

Guys, please notice that I said that "a diet with a good amount of cholesterol is a necessary condition to achieve good levels of Testosterone." I did not say that it is a sufficient condition.

In other words, good cholesterol intake + "other things" (such as resistance training) = good total Testosterone levels. Sub-optimal cholesterol intake + "other things" != good total T levels.

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