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BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

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Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#151

Post by brandoncapecci »

prayag wrote: post #110
JPKab wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bad in this would be a young black girl trying to bring her hispanic friend. Exclusion is exclusion. If this were the WhiteBoysSew club, you would call it racist, despite the fact that very few white boys learn to sew.

exclusion != racism. Racism has power dynamics associated with it. If exclusion (or special inclusion programs as I would call it) leads to a more racially and gender balanced community it is a good thing.

Whether or not something is good has nothing to do with what it's labeled. Sure by definition it might not be racist but certainly that's how it would play out. A better equation might be:

exclusion != racism ≡ you're a minority

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#152

Post by wpietri »

vijayr wrote: post #53
_pius wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your rant a few times and I've yet to see your point. Charities should be based on need and helping the greater good, not on playing favorites. This isn't a charity. A black woman started this program to address a legitimate need that she saw. Others who agreed with her gave her money to do it. Where is the bad in this? How is this anything but a net positive for the world?

I understand where the GP is coming from. Teaching kids to code is an absolutely nice thing to do. But segregating based on color or gender or caste is never a good idea. What if a poor white or Asian or Hispanic kid wants to join this class? They'll be turned away? To give an example: India is a deeply divided society, based on caste/religion etc. In many educational institutions, huge percentage of seats are reserv…

> So a kid, who gets very low grades, can get into a good institution, just because he is from a lower caste, even if that kid's family is rich.

Wait! You're saying that the process of undoing centuries of systemic unfairness might not be perfectly fair itself? And that groups who were historically privileged are now sometimes experiencing a small fraction of what their ancestors dished out? The horror!

That's not to say that we shouldn't work toward a world which is perfectly fair. But I'm ok with the unfairness getting sloshed around a little as we reduce it. As a white USian, it kills me to see people who suddenly discover their sense of fairness only when they might be on the receiving end of a little inequality. Or, often, just getting demoted to mere equality.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#153

Post by wpietri »

fiblye wrote: post #88
rmc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes people in the privileged group (male and/or white) don't like targetting based on race/gender when it's negatively affects them .

This kind of "logic" really bothers me. Just because a chunk of a certain demographic is comparatively "privileged", we should gloss over all those who struggle to make a living simply because they were born a white male? If anything, being born poor and white can be more difficult because people bitch about your "privilege" each time you ask for the slightest degree of help. If you're poor and white, you're pretty m…

> Outside of racial profiling within America's law enforcement [...] there's really no "white privilege" in America.

Spoken like a white person. As a fellow white person, let me tell you: you're wrong.

Some years back I shaved my head for a year or so. The difference was astounding. People treated me very differently. Suddenly they were scared of me. I mentioned to some friends that people were now crossing the street to avoid me. One of them, a tall black male, said, "Well now you know." And he's right. I look for it now and I see white people doing stuff like this all the time. I'm sure I miss a lot of it, too.

Anecdotes aside, a study shows that people with white-sounding names get 50% more job callbacks than people with black-sounding names: http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

I agree that there's substantial class discrimination, and further that being poor in the US is a bucket of shit. But although white privilege may have lessened in the last 50 years, it is still alive and well.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#154

Post by TechNewb »

slurgfest wrote: post #45
TechNewb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This fits the definition of racism: "Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief." Any targeting based on the color of skin is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Charity should be called something that does that imply racial discrimination.

So I take it that any attempt to help Native Americans on the reservation is racist because it is not helping poor whites?

Things are not black and white, no pun intended. But Habitat for Humanity is a good example of a charity executed right. They help Native Americans, to everyone else. So yes, if you exclusively help someone solely based off the color of their skin, with the notion of advancing only a certain race, then yes, I would consider that racist. It's not called Habitat for Native Americans. Or Habitat for Blacks. It's called Habitat for Humanity. Also, affirmative action based off of race is morally wrong. (Note about me: My gf is of another ethnicity origin than myself, and I love diversity. I see organizations that are based on race morally wrong, and promote segregation and cultural bias)

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#155

Post by dinkumthinkum »

IanDrake wrote: post #149
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only point in your reply that I understand is that you believe black women are poor, therefore typical social rules regarding segregation don't apply. I don't know why you're having trouble understanding this. This stuff is pretty basic to understand. Your view is childish and pedantic. "Wah realizing there are social mores in effect in the real world is just segregation." > By this logic you are OK with a grou…

>This stuff is pretty basic to understand. Well then help me... >Your view is childish and pedantic. Ad hominem, not helpful. >No, I think there are qualitative social implications that we all recognize Emphasis mine. Like what? Black people are poor, so they get a pass? Is that what you mean? Jesus, just say it. >But I do think having groups as you suggested is a good idea but I think the naming of them should pay a…

That's not ad hominem, look it up. Your view is childish and pedantic, exactly. You are more concerned with what you suppose to be technically "segregation."

You said all the racist stuff not me. I didn't say that blacks are poor so the get a pass. I said they are social realities that reasonable people, i.e. non-childlike pedants, that understand. :)

There are people still alive that lived under Jim Crow. It is only very recently that public bigotry against black people has been considered taboo. People always trot out "slavery's been over for 150 years" bit but the problems begot by slavery didn't go away over night. In fact, we have some moron on this thread spouting off about how whites are intellectually superior to blacks and the best response most on HN have to that is "Well, we should really consider charitably the intellectual possibility the blacks are 'stupider' than whites."

You've offered nothing more than a false dichotomy in your last statement. Black people have been inundated with the statements both direct and indirect of inferiority. As well, whether you believe it or not, many places even in our current situation are made to feel as the other. Being "black girls" is part of the identify of many "girls that happen to be black (if I'm going to play this pedantic game with you)." Therefore, what exactly with promoting a notion that something fundamental to their identity is good, i.e. "Black Girls Can Code?"

Maybe your jibber jabber would make sense if we were robots or Vulcans, but I mean, that's just no reality. I'm sorry, I can't change that for you. The world is more complicated than you think it is, welcome to Earth.

Do you really want me to explain all of the culture of the Western world to you? I mean it may seem that I'm shirking from a responsibility by not offering you one but it just seems ridiculous that you would need one.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#156

Post by dinkumthinkum »

fitzsnaggle wrote: post #148
vijayr wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where the GP is coming from. Teaching kids to code is an absolutely nice thing to do. But segregating based on color or gender or caste is never a good idea. What if a poor white or Asian or Hispanic kid wants to join this class? They'll be turned away? To give an example: India is a deeply divided society, based on caste/religion etc. In many educational institutions, huge percentage of seats are reserv…

FYI, Hispanics were present at the workshops. It should be called "Minority Girls Code", but I still think this name is better and its too late to change it. If a white girl came, I doubt they would be turned away. Men definitely would, as girls demure easily with boys in the room when it comes to tech.

No, apparently we need complete and utter equality or the kids get nothing. :)

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#157

Post by colmvp »

EricDeb wrote: post #145
colmvp wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are plenty of white people who live in abject poverty." Sure, but just by being another race, there is very little if any chance for non-white males to do certain things. A feel-good story like Jim Carrey would NEVER happen for a Asian male in America. Heck there was even a survey that found women estimate Asian men would need to earn about $200k to have the same 'status' as a white male. So yes, while being p…

I've heard my Asian friends make similar remarks about a lack of Asians in Hollywood. I see it as mainly a consequence of the fact that A. they don't traditionally view acting as a noble or lucrative career path and B. they only make up a small percentage of the population (4.5%)

I don't think it's that simple. Notice how there are arguably more Asian women in the media (newscasts, roles in movies, fashion shows) than Asian men. I don't think there is a lack of men who want to go into it, I think it's just a lack of demand.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#158

Post by rmc »

Jach wrote: post #130
rmc wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, yes you did: What's the poorest country in the western hemisphere? Haiti. What makes it "special"? Now, what's the poorest most impoverished continent in the world? Africa. What makes it "special"? I think you get the picture. You implied "poverty, ergo stupidity"

I interpreted it the other way around, it's easy to get mixed up when subjects are sensitive. He's not trying a deductive argument (which would be trivially defeated by pointing to, off the top of my head, Perelman, and many others one which you also tried), his approach is inductive. He's offering statements about reality as evidence which are consistent with the hypothesis that "black people are stupider on average…

If that bar of 'acceptable evidence' is set so that those examples can be used to support the theory that "black people are stupider than average", then my examples of poor catholic countries in europe should be acceptable to support the theory that "catholics are stupidier on average".

There used to be a lot of discrimination against people based on religious groups within christianity. But now catholics are considered white.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#159

Post by rmc »

wpietri wrote: post #153
fiblye wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of "logic" really bothers me. Just because a chunk of a certain demographic is comparatively "privileged", we should gloss over all those who struggle to make a living simply because they were born a white male? If anything, being born poor and white can be more difficult because people bitch about your "privilege" each time you ask for the slightest degree of help. If you're poor and white, you're pretty m…

> Outside of racial profiling within America's law enforcement [...] there's really no "white privilege" in America. Spoken like a white person. As a fellow white person, let me tell you: you're wrong. Some years back I shaved my head for a year or so. The difference was astounding. People treated me very differently. Suddenly they were scared of me. I mentioned to some friends that people were now crossing the stree…

Another way (as a man) to get an idea of what's going on. Join a kitting/crochet group. Try to learn how to knit. (There's knitting circles all over the place) You'll find yourself in a female dominated environment, tis a kinda weird feeling at first, and a bit eye opening.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#160

Post by IanDrake »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #155
IanDrake wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This stuff is pretty basic to understand. Well then help me... >Your view is childish and pedantic. Ad hominem, not helpful. >No, I think there are qualitative social implications that we all recognize Emphasis mine. Like what? Black people are poor, so they get a pass? Is that what you mean? Jesus, just say it. >But I do think having groups as you suggested is a good idea but I think the naming of them should pay a…

That's not ad hominem, look it up. Your view is childish and pedantic, exactly. You are more concerned with what you suppose to be technically "segregation." You said all the racist stuff not me. I didn't say that blacks are poor so the get a pass. I said they are social realities that reasonable people, i.e. non-childlike pedants, that understand. :) There are people still alive that lived under Jim Crow. It is only…

>That's not ad hominem, look it up. Your view is childish and pedantic,

Oh, you said my view...If that's not ad hominem, then I should tell you that I think your view is idiotic and short sighted...I was holding back on that one before.

>but I mean, that's just no [sic] reality

Ok, I get it. The world is the way it is and we should not endeavor to change it. We should treat some people as special and others as not special. Score one more point for moral relativism.

With logic like that, I guess I should hope I'm not in a group that falls out of favor.

>Do you really want me to explain all of the culture of the Western world to you?

In all seriousness, I would be incredibly grateful to hear your version.

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