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You can't optimize your way to being a good person

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Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#61

Post by bumby »

tombert wrote: post #40
bumby wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. To put it in a different context, the psychologist Paul Bloom wrote an interesting book titled "Against Empathy." He makes a distinction between "emotional empathy" and "cognitive empathy". He is an advocate of the latter, while acknowledging that the former can lead to many sub-optimal outc…

I'm not terribly concerned with optimizing, honestly. I try and make decisions that I'm unlikely to regret, at least not for long term. Hurting someone, or not helping someone that I should have helped, are things that I end up really regretting, and those are the things that keep me up at night. I don't lose a lot of sleep for doing something that I genuinely thought was right. If someone takes advantage of my empat…

An economists perspective would be that your utility function can be whatever you want. According to what you said above, you would be minimizing regret, which is an optimization goal (although it sounds overly dry in that context).

Blooms point is that when we take on the emotions of someone else, it has the ability to override our rational decision making and that rational decisions tend to lead to objectively better outcomes.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#62

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

trod1234 wrote: post #60
tombert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

Those with a lot of introspection can do this, and it can be a benefit to yourself and others when used correctly. In my opinion, you were dumb for doing that, but I can't say I haven't done something similar. Given my experience, I wouldn't do this again. My experience involved a crazed homeowner in their 40s shooting at me standing on the public sidewalk for taking pictures of the neighborhood for a realtor, this w…

I would press charges, too. Shooting is a lot different from stealing.

I might not let people off the hook, because I think it might change them, but it might change someone else who saw it happen, or, maybe, a family member that depends on them.

This goes doubly true, these days, with everything being live-streamed.

I get a little nauseous, though, at some of the staged crap, out there.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#63

Post by tombert »

trod1234 wrote: post #60
tombert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

Those with a lot of introspection can do this, and it can be a benefit to yourself and others when used correctly. In my opinion, you were dumb for doing that, but I can't say I haven't done something similar. Given my experience, I wouldn't do this again. My experience involved a crazed homeowner in their 40s shooting at me standing on the public sidewalk for taking pictures of the neighborhood for a realtor, this w…

It's certainly violating and I was pretty upset to have my phone stolen, but there's always a risk of someone fucking you over for doing nearly anything. I said it in a sibling response; I don't lose sleep for doing something that I genuinely thought was right. I might be a bit more cautious now, but I cannot imagine a scenario where, if a 17 year old said he needed to call his mom, that I don't try and help somehow, though I'd probably point him to the nearest police station nowadays (it's NYC, they're everywhere).

Things would definitely be different if it were an armed robbery, however. The reason I didn't feel the need to press charges is because I genuinely don't think I was ever in any "danger". As far as I'm aware, the kid wasn't armed, outside of a light shove that was clearly not meant to hurt me, there wasn't even physical contact, so I think it was just some idiot teenager who snatched a phone.

If they had had a gun or a knife or physically assaulted me, I would probably have pressed charges, since that's a more-direct public safety issue at hand there.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#64

Post by Dfiesl »

atmosx wrote: post #38
Clubber wrote: post #8

I always tell my daughter to be a kind person because there is currently an oversupply of assholes. I try to compliment someone on something whenever I go out and about. I like your hair, I like your shirt, etc. It's the simple things. The author and their anecdotes seem like compulsive behavior/thinking. They'll hopefully get over it once life beats them down a bit more. Just be good to people, don't over think it.

> I always tell my daughter to be a kind person because there is currently an oversupply of assholes. I'm sorry to hear that. I don't want to come across as harsh, but your approach/wording seems condescending, egotistical, and ultimately an empty way to live. Wise people learn by observing others (as the saying goes), but allowing others to dictate who you are reflects a lack of character IMO.

I'm guessing from your reply that you don't think its important to emphasise kindness as part of supporting your childrens' growth. If that is the case, what do you emphasise if anything?

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#65

Post by alganet »

tombert wrote: post #52
alganet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. It is not. But also, empathy is not the same thing as kindness. Empathy, as you mentioned, is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes. To imagine what is like to be other. Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. But they're not kind, they are ruthless. > I feel like part of what defines us as…

I don't think I disagree with anything you said (though I'm hesitant to call myself creative). I guess when I say "empathy", I also mean "feeling someone's pain", in addition to the "someone else's shoes". I think being able to understand someone's situation, and see how they're actually hurting, and how you'd hurt if someone did that to you, is the part of empathy/kindness that is a key ingredient in being a "decent…

I meant creativity in a broader sense. Like "using stone tools", not "painting and dancing" (but not excluding it!).

Kind empathy has been demonstrated in some rats (a highly intelligent animal): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms

Note the researchers mentioning a "social contagion" that encourages empathy (another one of your kind crying, you cry). The goal of the experiment is to detect an even deeper kind of empathy (the savior rat is also in high stress and must overcome its instincts to save his fellow rat).

The thing you did for the kid required much more sophistication than that. Some of that sophistication comes from or manifests as empathy, in the sense that they're correlated.

I'm also saying it in a broader sense than only biological in rats. But that's the part that science has no data yet, so that's why I say it comes from my conjecturing ass.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#67

Post by tombert »

bumby wrote: post #61
tombert wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not terribly concerned with optimizing, honestly. I try and make decisions that I'm unlikely to regret, at least not for long term. Hurting someone, or not helping someone that I should have helped, are things that I end up really regretting, and those are the things that keep me up at night. I don't lose a lot of sleep for doing something that I genuinely thought was right. If someone takes advantage of my empat…

An economists perspective would be that your utility function can be whatever you want. According to what you said above, you would be minimizing regret, which is an optimization goal (although it sounds overly dry in that context). Blooms point is that when we take on the emotions of someone else, it has the ability to override our rational decision making and that rational decisions tend to lead to objectively bett…

There's probably some truth to this, and I suppose you can define "objectively better" as "maximizing your optimization goal" or "minimizing the bad stuff" or something, quantifying that however you want.

That said, I'm not 100% convinced that my "rational brain" actually is better at making decisions that minimize regret than just relying on emotions. My rational brain is very good at rationalizing shit to where I can convince myself that something that's very obviously bad is "actually ok when you think about it like this...", and then I regret it afterwards.

At least for me, that doesn't really happen when I just rely heavily on my emotional brain.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#68

Post by tombert »

apprentice7 wrote: post #58
tombert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

I really resonate with this sentiment and want to share a similar story. Where I live, supermarkets have a reception where you can leave your belongings while you're shopping. The employee in charge gives you a numbered card that matches the drawer in which they stored your things (all of this is handled by the employee) and off you go. No keys or anything, only a drawer with a card. A few months ago I left my backpa…

I think you did the right thing. Mistakes happen, and very little good would come out of demanding that this person gets fired as a result of one (though the employee probably did deserve a bit of embarrassment). The manager probably should have apologized, but it's not the end of the world.

I will admit that I get a bit paranoid with those bag-check things at the stores here. At the stores in my neighborhood, they know me well enough to where they almost never even check my card, it would be super easy for me to grab someone else's bag. I've never done it, I don't want to do it, but I could...that's why I usually don't go directly before or after work, because I don't want my bag with an expensive Macbook to get stolen.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#69

Post by atmosx »

Dfiesl wrote: post #64
atmosx wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always tell my daughter to be a kind person because there is currently an oversupply of assholes. I'm sorry to hear that. I don't want to come across as harsh, but your approach/wording seems condescending, egotistical, and ultimately an empty way to live. Wise people learn by observing others (as the saying goes), but allowing others to dictate who you are reflects a lack of character IMO.

I'm guessing from your reply that you don't think its important to emphasise kindness as part of supporting your childrens' growth. If that is the case, what do you emphasise if anything?

You're guessing wrong.

Kindness has a merit on it's own and ultimately it's a good idea for a person to decide what they want to be and take responsibility for their choices.

Being kind "because there are too many unkind people out there" sounds wrong. I have no idea how they measured the "too many unkind people out there" but lets assume for a moment this balance shifts - then what? They should be unkind because there are too many kind people out there? Is this is a simple act of balancing the two sides?

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#70

Post by martinmakesgame »

tombert wrote: post #52
alganet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. It is not. But also, empathy is not the same thing as kindness. Empathy, as you mentioned, is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes. To imagine what is like to be other. Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. But they're not kind, they are ruthless. > I feel like part of what defines us as…

I don't think I disagree with anything you said (though I'm hesitant to call myself creative). I guess when I say "empathy", I also mean "feeling someone's pain", in addition to the "someone else's shoes". I think being able to understand someone's situation, and see how they're actually hurting, and how you'd hurt if someone did that to you, is the part of empathy/kindness that is a key ingredient in being a "decent…

Empathy is I feel what you feel. Compassion is I understand what you feel, how can we help? It is usually better to aim for compassion because if a person is having a crisis you don't want to go down in flames with them, compassion gives us emotional space to be helpful rather than affected by emotions that can pull us down.
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