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You can't optimize your way to being a good person

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Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#51

Post by MrMcCall »

The Great(est) Command(ment) is to love God with all our being, and then to love our neighbors as ourself, not more, not less.

Being kind, generous, forgiving, helpful, and compassionate are some of the ways we can love people, and should, in order to be a good person who reaps happiness in their life. God does not force us to do this, and freely allows us to choose each virtue's corresponding vice, if we wish, instead.

God would, however, prefer us to treat each other well and form loving societies, but our ignorance of what good even is, as well as or selfishnesses that rebel against lovingly curious attitudes and behaviors, are preventing our moving towards such positive self-evolution.

We all have the choice to embark on becoming filled with love towards each other; a person does not need God's help to choose to be good by embracing a more virtuous life that cares for others, but the Creator just might be essential for our becoming actually transformed into a really, really good person. In fact, connecting with the Ultimate Loner just might be an integral part of what is possible in the human experience.

And I'm using "just might" as a big ol' hint that that is actually the truth of our reality, which is exactly what it is, my friends.

The choice to seek, learn, and believe the truth is everyone's human right. We each exercise that right every moment of every day, for good or ill, in loving care or selfish callousness.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#52

Post by tombert »

alganet wrote: post #46
tombert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

> I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. It is not. But also, empathy is not the same thing as kindness. Empathy, as you mentioned, is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes. To imagine what is like to be other. Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. But they're not kind, they are ruthless. > I feel like part of what defines us as…

I don't think I disagree with anything you said (though I'm hesitant to call myself creative).

I guess when I say "empathy", I also mean "feeling someone's pain", in addition to the "someone else's shoes".

I think being able to understand someone's situation, and see how they're actually hurting, and how you'd hurt if someone did that to you, is the part of empathy/kindness that is a key ingredient in being a "decent human". I'm not perfect at it, obviously, I've acted selfishly plenty of times and I regret the times that I have, but it's the closest thing I have to a "moral code".

In regards to this kid, I just remember how angry I was at everything when I was 17. I hated going to school, I hated most of my teachers, I hated most of my classmates, I hated girls who wouldn't date me, and I hated guys who wouldn't be my friend. I was an idiot. It's a tough age for anyone, and I think a lot of people (particularly those in charge the US penal codes) forget that fact.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#53

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

losteric wrote: post #35
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

> I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). Do you mind if I ask what kind of organization? I’ve struggled to find active groups focused on values/principles instead of hobbies. Or maybe by organization, you mean work?

Won't go into detail. Recovery fellowship.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#55

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

lisper wrote: post #36
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

> they can be interpreted as attacking, or weakness I think a more constructive way to look at it is one style puts a higher cost on wasting time than and the other style puts a higher cost on appearing unsympathetic. I call it "country style" (putting more value on appearing empathetic than being time-efficient) and "city style" (the opposite). People who grow up in one environment or the other often have trouble tr…

Yup.

I live in New York, and have a friend from Atlanta. He has that "meandering" style, where it can take him a while, to get to the point.

I swapped "weakness" for "dishonesty," because that's what a lot of New Yorkers think of that style.

He's a really decent chap, but he seems to get a lot of New Yorkers pissed at him.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#56

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #48
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

> For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virginia. Askers vs. Guessers - a fun spectrum to think about, once you realize it exists: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/05/askers-...

That's a great thread[0]!

[0] https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#57

Post by bell-cot »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #45
bell-cot wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was his "trouble staying employed" because HVAC bored him out of his mind, or attention span issues, or other factors? The world has plenty of people who are really smart, yet are really not "good employee" material.

He was angry . I mean, really angry. He was also very big and intimidating. That didn't help. Most of the anger came from prison, and from being screwed over, to be thrown in there. That can make it difficult to get along with others, and those who don't play well with others, have trouble staying employed. But it's also possible to transcend that kind of thing. I see it regularly. It just takes a lot of work. Painfu…

> He was also very big and intimidating.

I'll bet that was unhelpful at age 17, when our justice system was deciding his fate.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#58

Post by apprentice7 »

tombert wrote: post #25
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

I really resonate with this sentiment and want to share a similar story.

Where I live, supermarkets have a reception where you can leave your belongings while you're shopping. The employee in charge gives you a numbered card that matches the drawer in which they stored your things (all of this is handled by the employee) and off you go. No keys or anything, only a drawer with a card.

A few months ago I left my backpack at a one of these. 20 minutes later, as I was about to leave, I went to return the card in order to retrieve my stuff and to my surprise they gave me someone else's backpack.

I kindly asked what happened and after the manager had gone to check the CCTV footage they told me they gave my backpack to another customer. The problem? The numbered card didn't match the drawer and no one had realised. And there I was with the stranger's backpack and no way to contact him.

I agreed to wait until this man came back to return my stuff so we could switch backpacks (he had to; his work ID was on his backpack). I went home, told my family what happened, and they asked me what I told the supermarket staff. "Nothing, I'm just gonna wait" I said, and they rambled on about how I should have yelled at them and made a scene and maybe even made them fire the employee that grabbed my backpack.

I didn't do any of that because I precisely didn't want them to fire the poor minimum wage worker. Besides, I understood all of this happened because the system of numbered card/open drawer is completely broken. It wasn't relly the employee's fault; although it was his mistake not checking the numbers not matching. Yelling wouldn't have fixed anything.

I got my backpack back the next morning. No one was fired. The supermarket manager didn't even apologize for the inconvenience though, but ok.

Be kind.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#59

Post by lisper »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #55
lisper wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can be interpreted as attacking, or weakness I think a more constructive way to look at it is one style puts a higher cost on wasting time than and the other style puts a higher cost on appearing unsympathetic. I call it "country style" (putting more value on appearing empathetic than being time-efficient) and "city style" (the opposite). People who grow up in one environment or the other often have trouble tr…

Yup. I live in New York, and have a friend from Atlanta. He has that "meandering" style, where it can take him a while, to get to the point. I swapped "weakness" for "dishonesty," because that's what a lot of New Yorkers think of that style. He's a really decent chap, but he seems to get a lot of New Yorkers pissed at him.

> I swapped "weakness" for "dishonesty,"

But both of those are unnecessarily uncharitable readings. Country style is neither weak nor dishonest, it's just different. A lot of country-style people consider city-style to be "rude" but it's not, it's just more efficient than they're used to.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#60

Post by trod1234 »

tombert wrote: post #25
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

Those with a lot of introspection can do this, and it can be a benefit to yourself and others when used correctly.

In my opinion, you were dumb for doing that, but I can't say I haven't done something similar. Given my experience, I wouldn't do this again.

My experience involved a crazed homeowner in their 40s shooting at me standing on the public sidewalk for taking pictures of the neighborhood for a realtor, this was around 2009. They thought I worked for their mortgage lender who was foreclosing.

The wood fence took most of the damage, but there were kids playing in the paved cul-de-sac right behind where I was standing. No serious injuries, thankfully, and the police confiscated the firearm. I didn't press charges, because I empathized as my family had people who lost their entire retirements in the fallout from the market and that was real fresh.

I would press charges today having had that experience (and others). Very few people change themselves unless they are forced to through isolated introspection or negative circumstance. Being young, or stupid, or a victim, isn't a defensible justification. Its letting them off the hook for their actions without consequence.

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