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You can't optimize your way to being a good person

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Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#41

Post by bell-cot »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30
nuancebydefault wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i would have done the same. Do they throw 17 yos in jail, where you live? If so, do they do that over stealing a phone? If so... maybe it would be more moral in stepping into a political career and try to change some laws?

I knew someone that spent about 18 years in Maximum Security adult prison, from 17, because he burgled the house of an important person. One of the smartest people I ever knew. Probably had an IQ of 140. He was an HVAC tech, and had trouble staying employed. It totally wrecked his life, and he ended badly. Yes, we do that stuff in the US.

Was his "trouble staying employed" because HVAC bored him out of his mind, or attention span issues, or other factors?

The world has plenty of people who are really smart, yet are really not "good employee" material.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#42

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

soulofmischief wrote: post #37
nuancebydefault wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i would have done the same. Do they throw 17 yos in jail, where you live? If so, do they do that over stealing a phone? If so... maybe it would be more moral in stepping into a political career and try to change some laws?

A friend of mine got life in prison with no parole at 17. I myself got 6 months jail time at 17 after being subject to a highly illegal and corrupt legal racket in a small town, when a meth-dealing police officer planted weed on me at the scene of an accident. I was also homeless. Good times.

[dead]

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#43

Post by seanhunter »

gitpusher wrote: post #23

If you spend all your time worrying about how to be a good person, chances are you're not being a good person. Just go do nice things. Volunteer somewhere. Be of service. And stop worrying so much

In “Meditations”, his personal journal, Marcus Aurelius wrote “Stop wasting time thinking what it means to be a good man. Be one.”

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#45

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

bell-cot wrote: post #41
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone that spent about 18 years in Maximum Security adult prison, from 17, because he burgled the house of an important person. One of the smartest people I ever knew. Probably had an IQ of 140. He was an HVAC tech, and had trouble staying employed. It totally wrecked his life, and he ended badly. Yes, we do that stuff in the US.

Was his "trouble staying employed" because HVAC bored him out of his mind, or attention span issues, or other factors? The world has plenty of people who are really smart, yet are really not "good employee" material.

He was angry. I mean, really angry.

He was also very big and intimidating. That didn't help.

Most of the anger came from prison, and from being screwed over, to be thrown in there.

That can make it difficult to get along with others, and those who don't play well with others, have trouble staying employed.

But it's also possible to transcend that kind of thing. I see it regularly. It just takes a lot of work. Painful, humbling, work.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#46

Post by alganet »

tombert wrote: post #25
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

I've been accused of having "pathological empathy" before [1], and to this day I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. Being able to fairly easily put myself in someone else's shoes is pretty much the only thing I actually like about myself. I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. In 2023 my iPhone was stolen (story is pare…

> I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness.

It is not. But also, empathy is not the same thing as kindness.

Empathy, as you mentioned, is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes. To imagine what is like to be other.

Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. But they're not kind, they are ruthless.

> I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them.

Here you are talking about kindness. I think similarly.

I also believe this is correlated with creativity and collaboration skills. To me, there is something about the inner act of kind understanding that seems to be a _prerequisite_ for advanced communication. Totally out of my ass, I'm no psychologist.

> I would hope that if I were caught for something stupid when I was 17 someone else would have extended me the same benefit of the doubt

Not only you understood that, but you were able to communicate something to the kid that is remarkably uncommunicable. The kind act is also a kind message, you _meant it_ as a message somehow. Not all empaths want or can do that.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#47

Post by tombert »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #45
bell-cot wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was his "trouble staying employed" because HVAC bored him out of his mind, or attention span issues, or other factors? The world has plenty of people who are really smart, yet are really not "good employee" material.

He was angry . I mean, really angry. He was also very big and intimidating. That didn't help. Most of the anger came from prison, and from being screwed over, to be thrown in there. That can make it difficult to get along with others, and those who don't play well with others, have trouble staying employed. But it's also possible to transcend that kind of thing. I see it regularly. It just takes a lot of work. Painfu…

I can't even imagine how much prison would fuck me up.

Between potential sexual abuse, being around a lot of violent people, the general disregard Americans have for prisoners and convicted felons and their well-being, and the "doing what you have to to survive" mentality that seems to scar incarcerated people, it would be hard for it not to change you as a person.

I really hate how the US handles prisons, and I really hate the "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality we have here. I hope it's obvious, that's not something I agree with.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#48

Post by pavel_lishin »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #18

"Being a good person" has been a theme in my entire adult life. I'm a member of an organization that stresses personal improvement (amongst other things). "Being a good person" can vary, by culture and context. For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virg…

> For example, some cultures prescribe brusqueness, and direct communication, while other cultures want us to always "beat around the bush," before coming to the point. Think New York City, versus Richmond, Virginia.

Askers vs. Guessers - a fun spectrum to think about, once you realize it exists: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/05/askers-...

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#49

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

jimt1234 wrote: post #33
gitpusher wrote: post #23

If you spend all your time worrying about how to be a good person, chances are you're not being a good person. Just go do nice things. Volunteer somewhere. Be of service. And stop worrying so much

100% ... In my life, I accepted a while back that I don't have to solve world hunger or cure cancer in order to be a good person - just be as courteous to others as I can; focus on the little things. For example, I always park my car in the back of parking lots (or otherwise far away) because I'm perfectly capable of walking, while others might struggle. Is that gonna get me a Nobel prize? Certainly not. But I like t…

I selfishly park in the back because I hate circling the lot looking for a spot. It may/nor be more time efficient on average, but I do not have to deal with that frustration just to save a few steps.
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