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BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

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Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#41

Post by slurgfest »

baddox wrote: post #32
natrius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of these types of programs is to change cultures. If under-representation isn't caused by biology, then it's caused by culture. If the programs didn't target people within the cultures they're trying to change, they wouldn't succeed. They'd be full of the people who are already likely to be interested in programming, which isn't a problem in itself, but isn't the goal of the programs.

What if under-representation is caused by collectivism? After all, the solution to slavery wasn't reversing or evening out the ethnicities of slave and master, it was getting rid of slavery altogether.

What do you get rid of here? Black culture?

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#42

Post by _pius »

mibbitier wrote: post #37
_pius wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262233

I disagree. Everyone can be a minority if they decide to, depending on how you cut the population. To claim "white males" are a majority is just an arbitrary distinction you're making. Everyone is a majority or minority depending on your criteria. You don't fix racism/sexist/etc with more racism/sexism/etc. You fix it by being inclusive, and judging people on their merits.

Everyone can be a minority if they decide to, depending on how you cut the population.

In other news: down is up, black is white, and true is false, depending on your criteria.

There are actual facts in the world and you don't get to change them to suit your side of the argument.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#43

Post by KuangEleven »

One line here stuck out for bad statistics:

"According to research gathered by BlackGirlsCode, African American women make up 4.8 percent of graduate enrollment in computer science programs, while only 0.03 percent of female Hispanic freshmen intended to major in computer science in 2006."

To start with, the line implies that these two statistic are related, but they are about different ethnicities, at different education levels comparing completely separate metrics!

Secondly, the 4.8 percent statistic seems to imply that this is under-representation, but being that African Americans make up ~12.6% of the population and women are very roughly half of that, 4.8 percent seems really close to demographic representation.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#44

Post by slurgfest »

TwiztidK wrote: post #30
dusing wrote: post #2

I like the idea of the program, but specifically "Black girls"...

To me it seems that if every thing is going to be broken down demographically to this extent, there will have to be: Black Girls Code, Hispanic Girls Code, Native American Girls Code, and then additional groups for minority males. At that point it seems to get kind of ridiculous as every potential minority-gender combination will need its own group which just seems kind of inefficient to me. I could be horribly wrong…

If people started every one of these, and actively pursued it, that would be a fantastic problem to have.

You seem to be saying "don't make any of them because it is unfair." I am saying "make any or all of them so that more smart and motivated people can get a hand up and make cool things so the future is great."

If I would get paid and have adequate organizational support I would be all about targeting education at Native Americans on the reservation. Can't you see how petty it would be to say that nobody should try to help Native Americans because it seems somehow "racist" to white males?

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#45

Post by slurgfest »

TechNewb wrote: post #25
JPKab wrote: post #13

I realize that the realities of the limited resources available for charities and non-profits is what leads to the ethnic and gender based targeting, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Is it a good cause? Yes. Teaching any disadvantaged group a useful skill is a great thing, but solving a problem of exclusion with further exclusion is, in principal, bad. I grew up in a poor, mostly black, rural county in V…

Agreed. This fits the definition of racism: "Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief." Any targeting based on the color of skin is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Charity should be called something that does that imply racial discrimination.

So I take it that any attempt to help Native Americans on the reservation is racist because it is not helping poor whites?

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#46

Post by zbuc »

petercooper wrote: post #6

I've been following this program for a while and even got to meet Kimberly at O'Reilly Fluent earlier in the year.. her enthusiasm is infectious! As important as her work is to the girls, though, I particularly hope she inspires other adults to take on this mentoring role so that everywhere can have its equivalent. Things like this are springing up all over. For example, here in the UK, Code Club has been founded by…

I volunteered for when they come to Detroit!

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#47

Post by rmc »

TechNewb wrote: post #25
JPKab wrote: post #13

I realize that the realities of the limited resources available for charities and non-profits is what leads to the ethnic and gender based targeting, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Is it a good cause? Yes. Teaching any disadvantaged group a useful skill is a great thing, but solving a problem of exclusion with further exclusion is, in principal, bad. I grew up in a poor, mostly black, rural county in V…

Agreed. This fits the definition of racism: "Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief." Any targeting based on the color of skin is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Charity should be called something that does that imply racial discrimination.

Depends. Some people define racism (& sexism etc) as "descrimination against a disadvantaged group by a privilieged group based on what separates them".

This would mean a black person in USA would not in general be able to be racist against a white person.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#48

Post by sp332 »

TwiztidK wrote: post #30
dusing wrote: post #2

I like the idea of the program, but specifically "Black girls"...

To me it seems that if every thing is going to be broken down demographically to this extent, there will have to be: Black Girls Code, Hispanic Girls Code, Native American Girls Code, and then additional groups for minority males. At that point it seems to get kind of ridiculous as every potential minority-gender combination will need its own group which just seems kind of inefficient to me. I could be horribly wrong…

A lot of hacker groups are already effectively "whites code" or even "white men code". So "black girls code" is just actually just as specific as some existing groups.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#49

Post by natrius »

mibbitier wrote: post #37
_pius wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262233

I disagree. Everyone can be a minority if they decide to, depending on how you cut the population. To claim "white males" are a majority is just an arbitrary distinction you're making. Everyone is a majority or minority depending on your criteria. You don't fix racism/sexist/etc with more racism/sexism/etc. You fix it by being inclusive, and judging people on their merits.

The goal of this program isn't to fix racism or sexism. It's to encourage a group of people to explore programming who do so at lower a rate than many other groups. If the talents and desires needed to program are evenly distributed among the population, this is a targeted way to improve the lives of people who wouldn't discover programming on their own. A program that wasn't narrowly targeted would have a lower return on investment.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#50

Post by peterwwillis »

JPKab wrote: post #22
peterwwillis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that charities should do a breakdown of all the demographics in a given area, and spend exactly the same resources on getting them all help? I wasn't aware that charities and non-profits were supposed to be so generalized. I thought targeting specific issues was part of the point, to have a greater chance at solving at least one problem. The net effect of this organization's efforts will be to elevat…

There should be zero targeting of ethnicity. Excluding people based on ethnicity is wrong, no matter what the ethnic group is. And what makes you so sure that black men would relate to black women better than they would men of other ethnic backgrounds? Which is the bigger divider, gender or ethnicity? The point I am making isn't that this isn't a good thing, because as I said in my original post, helping any disadvan…

I'm kind of struggling to figure out how to explain this.

You know how there's very few women in IT/CS?

You know how there's very few black people in IT/CS?

You know how people have been trying to figure out, 'Hey, how do we get more women and black people into IT/CS?'

This solves both problems.

What you're basically telling me is that trying to take people who generally have to struggle the most in life, and have the hardest time trying to get into technology, that helping them is wrong (morally? ethically?) and should be stopped because we should ignore the fact that they have a harder time than most because you don't like the idea of talking about race, or sex, or anything in specifics.

Wake up, pal. This is the real world. In the real world, people don't get treated fairly, and they don't get to live exactly the same lives. We should strive to help people that need it the most, yes, and sometimes this means working with one of those groups.

One of the reasons we do this is because there are special considerations when dealing with a specific group. Women, for example. They don't want arrogant objectifying men to intimidate them as they try to learn a new, difficult, intimidating subject. So there are organizations that try to help just women, to get around these problems.

Black people have their own problems to deal with. Sometimes, it affects those who live in economically-depressed clusters of an area. Most of the time, this is an overwhelmingly large number of the population of that area. As a result, it becomes significantly more challenging for a black person in that area to do something like learn to program than a white person in that area, and thus, they need a little more support.

It's not wrong to acknowledge this. It's just a fact of life. And in helping specific people who are having a hard time of things, we help those who are (in some cases) in the most need.

So please, get off your fucking high horse and give these people some credit for actually trying to help people.

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