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Conscious unbossing

robertwalters.co.uk

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Re: Conscious unbossing

#21

Post by klodolph »

brightball wrote: post #11

Nobody wants to be a middle manager. I’d be concerned if anyone ever wanted to be a middle manager. If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though.

> If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though.

You’re a middle manager if you’re not in “upper management”, but managers report to you. It’s called “middle” management because it’s between upper management (C-level and VPs, probably) and first-line management / frontline management. Start with all managers, select the ones in the middle, that’s middle management.

Re: Conscious unbossing

#22

Post by roughly »

Over2Chars wrote: post #12
jrmg wrote: post #3

This is presented as revolutionary, but it’s not clear to me that the results would’ve been any different if they’d surveyed the older generations at the same age.

The middle manager, by some corporate career paths, is the top of the IC food chain. Ergo managers are usually paid better than the top IC. This is, of course, stupidity at it's finest, draining top IC talent into PHB mediocrity. A few companies don't do this, they are the smarter ones. My impression is that this is not typical.

> managers are usually paid better than the top IC

This has not been my experience most places I’ve worked - you’ve gotta get a couple rungs up the management ladder (director or such) before the pay scale gets above staff and sr staff.

(It’s how we wound up with a few people at a previous gig managing teams as staff engineers - they didn’t want to take the pay cut for the title.)

Re: Conscious unbossing

#24

Post by asielen »

In my 15 years in small and mid-sized tech, I've found the most useless managers are senior managers.

Good team leads and second line managers can make or break an organization. But they are the least respected roles at a company and gets thrown under the bus first. Most companies don't invest anything in training new managers or setting clear roles and responsibilities for managers.

Senior management never faces any accountability but can make big massive changes to an org without consideration for implementation.

Re: Conscious unbossing

#26

Post by extr »

Try again without the phrase “middle manager” which has a derogatory meme attached to it, as evidenced by this very comment section. If you think you’ve invented a better (scalable) system than having ICs report up through a hierarchy with defined scope and responsibilities, you have probably just reinvented “management”.

Re: Conscious unbossing

#27

Post by GuB-42 »

jghn wrote: post #2

Does anyone really aspire to be a middle manager? That's like the worst spot in the hierarchy

Because that's how you become an upper manager.

Beside that, some people simply like the job. They like to manage people they actually know, without being too technical. Higher than that and you may lose human contact with people who are doing the job, lower than that and you are doing the job yourself.

Re: Conscious unbossing

#28

Post by jonahx »

WantonQuantum wrote: post #16
brightball wrote: post #11

Nobody wants to be a middle manager. I’d be concerned if anyone ever wanted to be a middle manager. If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though.

Middle manager is not a precise term so opinions on what is and is not a middle manager differ but in larger companies there are definitely senior managers and executive management.

All of the replies to GP sound like desperate attempts not to self-identify as a middle manager.

GP's definition matches common usage: To people not invested in this game, if you are manager at a large company and not C-suite, you're a middle manager.

Re: Conscious unbossing

#29

Post by nine_zeros »

jghn wrote: post #15
nine_zeros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with self-esteem issues who want to fill a deep-seated insecurity about social status find the org-chart as an adequate way to fill up their needs. The other is MBA grads/project managers who paid big bucks to be able to get a high paying job producing nothing but need a place in the company.

But why wouldn't they aspire to be upper management?

They often realize that the director title is good enough for their insecurities. Contentment sets in. Any lofty-sounding title is good enough.

Re: Conscious unbossing

#30

Post by Imnimo »

This doesn't really relate to the question of middle management, but it's interesting to compare the Canadian and British versions of this article:

https://www.robert-walters.ca/insights/news/blog/Concious-un...

https://www.robertwalters.co.uk/insights/news/blog/conscious...

They both have comments ostensibly from "Lucy Bisset, Director of Robert Walters North" and "Martin Fox, Managing Director of Robert Walters Canada". But the two have eerily similar thoughts on these result:

>Lucy Bisset, Director of Robert Walters North comments: “Gen-Z are known for their entrepreneurial mindset – preferring to bring their ‘whole self’ to projects and spend time cultivating their own brand and approach, rather than spending time managing others.

>Martin Fox, Managing Director of Robert Walters Canada comments: “Gen-Z are known for their entrepreneurial mindset. They prefer to bring their ‘whole self’ to projects, focusing on building their own brand and approach rather than managing others.

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