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How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

economist.com

161–170 of 249 posts

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#161

Is this... not a normal practice for all intelligence services of the world? Emigrants always have ties to the originland.

I don't really see France trying in any way to ask me to spy for it. And to steal what, the formula for Belgian chocolate or fricadelle?

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#162
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice a Wikipedia article. Where can I find any indication of comparative scale compared to any other nation, like I asked? Just going by a blind guess and knowledge of the world, I guess it's pretty much correlated with economy and geopolitical dominance, so I'd expect America to be number one simply as a result of it's wealth and strategic dominance in the last century, and then China somewhere around the level of t…

In a nutshell, it has a unique structure, a wider mandate, and operates a bit differently than your typical intelligence service - especially domestically. "One of the largest and most secretive intelligence organizations in the world, it maintains powerful branches at the provincial, city, municipality and township levels throughout China."

>operates a bit differently than your typical intelligence service - especially domestically

Fair enough.

But as wild speculation with no real insight, I'd guess that such a large mass organizational structure probably also precludes the same rigid centralization and advanced capabilities of other intelligence agencies i.e. it probably operates more as a snitching hotline to gather less specific intel on a wider range of people with less ability to perform any actionable espionage type operations, instead of a horde of spies illegally infiltrating every western government, university, and business.

But again I got no real idea.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#164
post #127
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they pay in cash up front. I've seen sometimes physical bundles of bills.

Why is this downvoted? The comment sounds plausible. The Chinese mob (wink wink) has the biggest money laundering operation in the world. They have brokers who pick up (source) and deliver (destination) the cash. They do all the currency conversion. And then have an internal market to auction the conversions. All over Chinese government controlled networks like WeChat. Very clever. The Triads have been doing this kin…

You're right, but also lumping every rich Chinese into a "part of a mob" is kinda funny. We talk about how we've outsources a buttloads of manufacturing to China, how they're making a killing out of their industrial policies and etc. Obviously there will be millions of people in China who are rich through their businesses. Just like in the states.

Dirty money will always exist, and currently exists in every single country. But in the past 20 years, there have been a rise in the amount of rich Chinese. Just like rich Japanese of 80s through their RE investments and etc.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#165
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. That's a major claim, do you have a link to an article or source?

Not the OP but I found this interesting so went digging [1]. >Amongst other things, the contract also commits the recipient to “regularly submit” a formal “Situation Report” (called the Study/Research/Training Situation Report for Personnel Studying Abroad 出国留学人员学习/研修情况报告) to the relevant Chinese embassy or consulate, and “participate in annual PhD student reviews” there. [1] https://ukctransparency.org/wp-content/up…

You can find the template of this report online by just Googling "出国留学人员学习/研修情况报告", it has English translation and appears to have a "Professor's Evaluation" section to be filled and signed by the foreign advisor.

There might be something else but this looks like a progress evaluation form and is hardly concerning.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Soon enough anything that is even remotely a security threat [...] will require clearance and in office work. I think this is one of those things that sucks but may be necessary. You need to trust the knowledge workers that make up your economy to not send your research to a hostile nation so they can take advantage of your R&D investments. And you need to know that your critical infrastructure (beyond Internet and…

>> vulnerable to being slowly pwned and then shut down all at once in a catastrophic event A few years ago everyone thought that would happen to Ukraine, that Russian hackers would shut down everything from water delivery to weapon systems. The hackers almost certainly tried, yet the lights remained on. Imho we overestimate the power of "nation-state hackers" and underestimate the resilience of our systems.

Ukraine also had a significant amount of non-computerized legacy infra from the Soviet era which reduced the scope of IT/OT attacks.

On the other hand, because of early mover advantage, a lot of utilities in the US computerized fairly early but the upfront cost of maintenance remained high.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#167
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this downvoted? The comment sounds plausible. The Chinese mob (wink wink) has the biggest money laundering operation in the world. They have brokers who pick up (source) and deliver (destination) the cash. They do all the currency conversion. And then have an internal market to auction the conversions. All over Chinese government controlled networks like WeChat. Very clever. The Triads have been doing this kin…

You're right, but also lumping every rich Chinese into a "part of a mob" is kinda funny. We talk about how we've outsources a buttloads of manufacturing to China, how they're making a killing out of their industrial policies and etc. Obviously there will be millions of people in China who are rich through their businesses. Just like in the states. Dirty money will always exist, and currently exists in every single co…

You cannot as a private person legally move more than about 100K USD out of mainland CN per year. You have to resort to criminal elements. Only they have the network. It's one of those things everyone does but lives in fear of being used against them by an enemy down the line.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, there were communist infiltration plans in the 1950s. The same as theres coordinated russian plans supporting conservative nationalists. If you want rational protectionism, America would need to stop treating businesses as the unit of concern and enact stronger worker privacy and consumer protections. The same way CIA backdoors are intrinsic unsafe, so are lax employee and consumer protections.

great, we are rehabilitating mccarthyism now

No, we are acknowledging Russian threats. Being paranoid about a threat is not the same thing as there being no threat.

Reading comprehension can help you.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The superpower aspect is true. Otherwise, India is very friendly with Russia. But we (i.e. big capital) want their H1B labor and outsourcing, so the narrative isn't there yet and many tech companies are headed by Indian CEOs. I'm exaggerating the above, but until recently China wasn't deemed to be a problem either, so the narrative does seem to play a role.

> until recently China wasn't deemed to be a problem either What changed is Xi Jinping became president. Until then China was considered a good citizen of the world. Xi Jinping started attacking neighbors, claimed ownership of south china sea, and so on, and this aggressive behavior damaged China's reputation.

I think there's a more important part that we might be overlooking - China is going forward with "play to win" strategy, rather than "play to exist". In the past couple of years, you can see how in North America we've started pushing "we have to win by all means" idea. For the first time, since 80s (when Japan was going to overtake USA), we have a real competitor now. And that competitor has been able to push through policies and prove that they can overcome hardships. They have a big demographics problem, but it's not going to hurt them for the next decade+. Still a long way to go, especially if you consider random statistics like there are 200M gig workers.

Basically, USA is scared that a political ideology that's not compatible with the western standards can become the most successful one that lifts its citizens. It will never be liked by any of the governments, because locals will be able to point towards China and say "well, why do they have it better?!".

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