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Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

lapcatsoftware.com

461–470 of 1001 posts

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#461

The referenced Apple blog post[1] is pretty clear on what this feature does, and I wish the author at lapcatsoftware (as well as folks here) would have read it too, instead of taking the blog post as-is. Apple has implemented homomorphic encryption[2], which they can use to compute distance metrics such as cosine similarity without revealing the original query/embedding to the server. In the case of photos, an on-dev…

You're extensively describing the technical implementation while missing the fundamental issue: Why is Apple enabling this feature by default for what is, essentially, a luxury photo search feature?

Let's break this down:

1. Nobody is questioning whether Apple's technical implementation is sophisticated or secure. It clearly is.

2. Nobody is suggesting the privacy toggles don't work. They do.

3. The issue is about Apple deciding that automatically sending data about users' photos (regardless of how securely) is an acceptable default for a feature many users may never want or need.

Consider the value proposition here: Apple invested significant engineering resources into complex homomorphic encryption and differential privacy... so users can search for landmarks in their photos? And they deemed this feature so essential that it should be enabled by default?

This feels like using a golden vault with military-grade security to store grocery lists. Yes, the security is impressive, but that's not the point. The point is: Why are my grocery lists being moved to the vault without asking me first?

A privacy-respecting approach would be: "Hey, would you like to enable enhanced landmark search in your photos? We've built some really impressive privacy protections to make this secure..."

Instead of: "We've already started analyzing your photos for landmarks because we built really impressive privacy protections..."

The sophistication of the technology doesn't justify making it the default for what is ultimately an optional convenience feature.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#462
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trust in software will continue to erode > there is an increasing discontent growing towards opt-out telemetry Really? That's news to me. What I observed is people giving up more and more privacy every year (or "delegating" their privacy to tech giants).

Absolutely! The important bit is that users have no choice in the matter. They're pushed into agreeing to whatever ToS and updating to whatever software version. The backlash against Microsoft's Windows Recall should serve as a good indicator of just how deeply people have grown to distrust tech companies. But Microsoft can keep turning the screws, and don't you know it, a couple years from now everyone will be runni…

If you accept Android as an option, then GrapheneOS probably check a lot of your boxes on an OS level. GrapheneOS developers sit between you and Google and make sure that shit like this isn't introduced without the user's knowledge. They actively strip out crap that goes against users interests and add features that empower us.

I find that the popular apps for basic operation from F-Droid do a very good job of not screwing with the user either. I'm talking about DAVx⁵, Etar, Fossify Gallery, K-9/Thunderbird, AntennaPod etc. No nonsense software that does what I want and nothing more.

I've been running deGoogled Android devices for over a decade now for private use and I've been given Apple devices from work during all those years. I still find find the iOS devices to be a terrible computing experience. There's a feeling of being reduced to a mere consumer.

GrapheneOS is the best mobile OS I've ever tried. If you get a Pixel device, it's dead simple to install via your desktop web browser[1] and has been zero maintenance. Really!

[1] https://grapheneos.org/install/web

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#464
post #392
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the CSAM thing that they have announced they gave up on. This is totally different.

Are you sure? Publicly yeah, but the same technology can easily be used for the same purpose.

Only in a very broad sense that they use HE to prevent the server from seeing what happened.

The CSAM tech detected matches against particular photos captured by law enforcement, and provided external evidence of the match (e.g. enough positive matches reconstructed a private key). It was not meant to do topical matches (e.g. arbitrary child in a bathtub), and had some protections to make it significantly harder to manufacture false positives, e.g. noise manipulated in kitten photos to cause them to meet the threshold to match some known image in the dataset.

This gives a statistical likelihood of matching a cropped image of a landmark-like object against known landmarks, based on sets of photos of each landmark (like "this is probably the Eiffel Tower"), and that likelihood is only able to be seen by the phone. There's also significantly less risk about around abuse prevention (someone making a kitten photo come up as 'The Great Wall of China')

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#465

Is this just a smokescreen around slowly sneaking CSAM scanning back in after the pushback last time? The "default on" behavior is suspect. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/apple-photo-scanning-csam-commun...

That whole incident was so misinformed. CSAM scanning takes place on the cloud with all the major players. It only has hashes for the worst of the worst stuff out there. What Apple (and others do) is allow the file to be scanned unencrypted on the server. What the feature Apple wanted to add was scan the files on the device and flag anything that gets a match. That file in question would be able to be decrypted on th…

> Everyone lost their mind yet it was clearly laid out in the papers Apple released on it.

And people working with CSAM and databases of CSAM have said it was a very bad idea.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#466
post #183

So basically - You take a picture. Apple encrypts it and uploads it to their server. The server matches the (still encrypted) picture to a database and tells your device "this picture contains the Eiffel Tower". Later when you search for Eiffel Tower on your device the photo pops up. Is the complexity and security risk really worth it for such a niche feature? It's also funny that Apple is simultaneously saying "don'…

They don’t send the photo. They send some encrypted metadata to which some noise is added. The metadata can be loosely understood as “I have this photo that looks sort of like this”. Then the server takes that encrypted data from the anonymized device and responds something like “that looks like the Eiffel Tower” and sends it back to the device. The actual photo never goes to the server.

With the added caveat that HE is magic sauce - so the server cannot see the metadata (cropped/normalized image data), and doesn't know how much it does or does not look like the Eiffel Tower.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#467
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enabling something by default is pretty close to not having it at all. Accessibility is a reasonable exception where it makes sense to have the features even though they are off by default. I mostly think the reaction to this article is overblown because it appeals popular ideas here about big tech. I think one should be wary of Apple’s claims about privacy: the reason is competition with Google and so they want…

> But I think one should also be wary of articles that make you angry and tell you what you suspected all along. (eg see the commenter elsewhere who doesn’t care about the details and is just angry). It’s much easier to spot this kind of rage-bait piece when it is targeting ‘normal people’ rather than the in-group. The article was published by an Apple developer and user, i.e., myself, on my personal blog, which is f…

I’m not interested in telling you what to put on your blog. Do whatever you like.

The headline is defensible but, in my opinion, quite sensationalised. People are likely to interpret it as being for an article making much stronger claims than the article actually does. I think a lot of the interactions people had with this submission, especially early on, were because the headline made them mad, rather than because of its contents. I think if one is interacting with some submission here due to a maddening headline, one should be wary about such interactions being driven by emotion, leading to poor discussion that is not particularly anchored to the topic of the article, rather than being driven by curiosity.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#468
post #324
post #292

What I want is very simple: I want software that doesn't send anything to the Internet without some explicit intent first . All of that work to try to make this feature plausibly private is cool engineering work, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with implementing a feature like this, but it should absolutely be opt-in. Trust in software will continue to erode until software stops treating end users and their data…

Developers of software want, and feel entitled to, the data on your computer, both about your usage within the app, as well as things you do outside of the app (such as where you go and what you buy). Software will continue to spy on people so long as it is not technically prohibited or banned.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#469

Is this just a smokescreen around slowly sneaking CSAM scanning back in after the pushback last time? The "default on" behavior is suspect. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/apple-photo-scanning-csam-commun...

Yes my thoughts as well. The tech was so expensive I guess that they had a need to test / run it to proof it’s private? I mean the model to find landmarks in your photos could run locally as well or? Ok I’m not 100% sure here.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#470
Apple TOS:

> To uphold our commitment to privacy while delivering these experiences, we have implemented a combination of technologies to help ensure these server lookups are private, efficient, and scalable.

Efficiency and scalability have nothing to do with "upholding one's commitment to privacy". This shows they're insincere.

But, is privacy achievable today? I doubt it. People desperately want (or think they want) features that are opposite to privacy, and if you don't give it to them, they're unhappy. I think Apple's fault is in promising something they can't deliver. (That also goes for Brave, Kagi, Duck Duck Go, etc.)

Scott McNealy famously said "You have zero privacy. Get over it." This was in January 1999. 25 years ago!

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