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I automated my job application process

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Re: I automated my job application process

#461

Post by Aurornis »

MrMember wrote: post #314

I'm seeing a lot of back in forth in the comments between hiring managers and employees discussing who is more responsible for the current situation, but from the perspective of someone looking for a job what should I be doing? I've been pretty aggressively looking for a job for the past six months or so. I have 10+ years of professional software dev experience so I've mostly been looking at senior dev positions. I h…

> So why should I keep doing what I'm doing when it's getting me nowhere? Why shouldn't I switch to an automated "shotgun" approach that applies me to as many jobs as possible to which I vaguely fit the requirements?

I’m in a big semi-private Slack where people have been discussing CS application strategies for a long time (since before ChatGPT).

The desperate people usually go through an arc where they try automated applications and embracing LLMs. Their response rate is dismal, but they make up for it with shotgun volume.

The catch is that when they finally get a job, it’s usually at a company that sucks. Some place with incompetent hiring managers who can’t tell the difference between LLM slop and a genuine application. Interview processes that leave so much room for LLM cheating that all of your coworkers are going to be LLM jockeys too.

So you can try it. You might get something out of it, which is better than nothing. However, if you’re expecting a good job at a good company then it’s not going to deliver what you expect.

Re: I automated my job application process

#462

Post by blurbleblurble »

Okay so people keep calling these "fake applicants" but the new reality is that for a good number of our roles realistically any old person person with good communication skills and some basic critical thinking skills will be able to functionally replace us given a some good AI tools. It will continue to look like these are "fake applicants" until you accept the new reality, which is that quite soon this whole thing will be smoothed over into a normalized surplus of "programmers".

This is just the beginning and it shouldn't really be a shock to anyone who's been watching this unfold over the last five years.

That said, we really don't need to rip each other up over this. This latest golden era of good old fashioned programming is winding down. Look ahead to what's coming next! What are the challenges we will face now?

Get creative and stay open minded about what you're capable of and willing to do. Be proactive and use your imagination with all this new stuff. Don't take real relationships for granted, cultivate them. Don't isolate yourself!

Re: I automated my job application process

#463

Post by jarsin »

mdaniel wrote: post #454
jarsin wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startup idea to truly solve this would be large network of onsite test / interview centers. I had to do all my certs onsite in test centers in early 2000's. For one I had to drive 2 hours to take the exam. Seems like those test centers used to be in every mid size city in the country.

I don't believe one needs a startup to solve that problem - there are already a bazillion certification paths for a bazillion tech stacks. The(?) problem is one of trust from the hiring org that the certs mean anything, and that's where the whole discussion devolves into one of (gatekeeping|but muh leetcode|our business problem is special|$other)

I meant a startup that provides onsite screening / verification of candidates for companies. Only pre-verifed candidates can apply to company jobs. If the candidate is not local, the company can use the test center to do a remote screen in an environment where candidate cannot cheat. Etc.

I just brought up certs because back in the day you could not take those test online due to cheating.

Now in the age of AI you can't do any type of testing remote, imo.

Re: I automated my job application process

#464

Post by matheusmoreira »

MrMember wrote: post #314

I'm seeing a lot of back in forth in the comments between hiring managers and employees discussing who is more responsible for the current situation, but from the perspective of someone looking for a job what should I be doing? I've been pretty aggressively looking for a job for the past six months or so. I have 10+ years of professional software dev experience so I've mostly been looking at senior dev positions. I h…

> I have 10+ years of professional software dev experience so I've mostly been looking at senior dev positions.

Is the job market just as bad for juniors, people looking to enter the field right now?

Re: I automated my job application process

#465

Post by WD-42 »

fijiaarone wrote: post #404
bb88 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Github copilot still sucks for writing complex code (algorithms or database queries, e.g.). Or trying to do unpopular things (like custom electronics using particular micros and driver chips). For unit tests, it's a godsend. Particularly if you write one unit test, and then it can write another in the style you wrote.

LLMs can’t write unit tests. They can’t even tell what you intend. If your code is already correct, you don’t need the unit test, if it’s not, the LLM can’t write the unit test. If you thing an LLM can write tests for you, you can be replaced by an LLM.

> if your code is already correct, you don’t need the unit test

This is a hot take. I'm 100% not onboard with.

Re: I automated my job application process

#466

Post by mdaniel »

jarsin wrote: post #463
mdaniel wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe one needs a startup to solve that problem - there are already a bazillion certification paths for a bazillion tech stacks. The(?) problem is one of trust from the hiring org that the certs mean anything, and that's where the whole discussion devolves into one of (gatekeeping|but muh leetcode|our business problem is special|$other)

I meant a startup that provides onsite screening / verification of candidates for companies. Only pre-verifed candidates can apply to company jobs. If the candidate is not local, the company can use the test center to do a remote screen in an environment where candidate cannot cheat. Etc. I just brought up certs because back in the day you could not take those test online due to cheating. Now in the age of AI you can…

I half-way suspected that's what you were going for (testing-as-a-service) but my point still stands: it is a web-of-trust bootstrapping problem. For example, Otherbranch[1] exists, is a startup, and is trying to handle pre-screening candidates, but they seem to have very few companies that are currently using them. One would assume if they were solving a real problem then companies would be beating down their door to get real, verified, actual people and yet.

1: see https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=otherbranch.com - the folks spun out of Triplebyte

Re: I automated my job application process

#467

Post by tokioyoyo »

vunderba wrote: post #76
teeray wrote: post #57

It’s astounding that we, as an industry, are so averse to licensing developers. It solves the resume spam problem and the repetitive LeetCode round(s) that every company now wants. We also don’t have to settle for the licensing process other industries have—ours can be more inclusive of alternative development backgrounds, while still providing a meaningful quality filter.

Yep, I've talked about this at length for years . We need to bring back the PE Exam to help guarantee some minimal level of competency in prospective applicants. https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin... But this is one of the most entitled industries in the universe. Even the mere notion of suggesting academic degrees, PE Exams and other forms of "gatekeeping" is tantamount to shouting Voldemor…

To be fair, there is a very good case for ignoring applications that list different certifications if you’re hiring. I fear the same would logic would apply to licensing.

Re: I automated my job application process

#468

Post by tokioyoyo »

neilv wrote: post #219

It's lucky for some people that I'm not hiring right now, because I'd probably perma-denylist anyone I caught sending me LLM-generated text, especially for something that's supposed to be one-to-one, like a cover letter/email. That is such a obvious imminent plague upon society, in so many ways, and the only thing I can do is nip the few buds that are within my reach.

I feel the same way, but it’s actually not easy to detect LLMs. Anyone who experimented with writing styles and been using them for a while, can easily create texts that are indistinguishable from a real person.

Fine tune a small LLM to your past emails, cover letters, resumes and etc. then go ham.

Re: I automated my job application process

#469

Post by bdangubic »

mdaniel wrote: post #466
jarsin wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant a startup that provides onsite screening / verification of candidates for companies. Only pre-verifed candidates can apply to company jobs. If the candidate is not local, the company can use the test center to do a remote screen in an environment where candidate cannot cheat. Etc. I just brought up certs because back in the day you could not take those test online due to cheating. Now in the age of AI you can…

I half-way suspected that's what you were going for (testing-as-a-service) but my point still stands: it is a web-of-trust bootstrapping problem. For example, Otherbranch[1] exists, is a startup, and is trying to handle pre-screening candidates, but they seem to have very few companies that are currently using them. One would assume if they were solving a real problem then companies would be beating down their door t…

this ain’t about pre-screening at all, it is about solving a different kind of problem. if you have experienced it already, you haven’t interviewed anyone recently.
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