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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

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Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#361

Post by tapland »

ironhaven wrote: post #230
tapland wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if the person has, let’s say, autism, and will not be able to endure this for longer than a few hours before becoming completely overwhelmed. What do you want these people to do, since they aren’t allowed to respond how they might do? When and where are they welcome in society?

Hello, person with autism here. If I am tasked with social interaction for too many hours I may no longer be able to focus on people. I may zone out and in order to get into focus someone may have to bother me in an uncomfortable way. This could, depending on the person who is on the autism spectrum, escalate to physical violence in an extreme scenario. I don’t think this describes “a panic attack”. I think “complete…

Absolutely. Just wanted to point out that having difficulty being in a social and potentialy rowdy and loud environment for hours can still remain after the "seek psych/medical help" advice that was thrown out!

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#362

Post by mkl95 »

Being open with a select group of collaborators has gained me above average praise, promotions, etc. over the years. You don't need to be an extrovert to be an average or slightly above average engineer, you just have to pick your battles appropriately and understand the problems you are solving. OP is optimizing for a rat race that most people don't care about.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#363

Post by mp05 »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #199
mp05 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't know fills me with terror. I think this is social anxiety and not to be confused with introversion.

There's clearly a high correlation though.

I think that it seems that way because we're not trained to see outgoing people as having any anxiety about the matter. It's a funny thing for sure.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#364

Post by fairity »

blueflow wrote: post #349
atleastoptimal wrote: post #307

I am an introvert not because I don’t like socializing with people, but rather because I can’t shake the impression that they don’t like socializing with me (and I have been proven right in this notion). In order to become more likable I’ve had to adopt an extremely perceptive and self critical mental framework to analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people. It has worked, and people seem to…

> analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people Is this a "you" problem or a "they" problem?

Why would it matter? OP is experiencing an undesirable outcome, and assigning blame for the problem seems besides the point when the main goal is to change the outcome.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#365

Post by gosub100 »

sans_souse wrote: post #348
lll-o-lll wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software world. Lookup something called “autistic masking”. Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like autistic people! Find your people and you won’t have to pretend around them.

Please don't try to diagnose people based on a couple paragraphs, on an internet forum, who didn't ask for a diagnosis in the first place.

why? because you don't think we're fully-capable adults here, able to weigh information and accept/reject it with full agency?

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#366

Post by Twirrim »

ternnoburn wrote: post #194

This author is deeply deeply misunderstanding other humans. They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality. And worse yet, coming to the wrong conclusions. You do not need to be an extrovert at work to get ahead. Full stop. Does it help in some ways? Sure, but you can be equally successful as an introvert as long as you are able to communicate clearly when needs demand it. Plenty of exce…

This whole introvert/extrovert label drives me a little crazy, just like almost anything that attempts to put people into boxes.

Humanity really needs to get past this foolish notion that things are black and white instead of the real shades of grey.

I probably straddle the line of introvert/extrovert. People tire me out, and I recharge in solitude like an introvert, but I'm also quite gregarious, and need to be around people getting a regular fix. I could never work solo on anything. I couldn't cope in a role that doesn't involve at least a handful of meetings a week (though they have to be legitimate, because I hate wasting my time in meetings and get easily bored in them).

I'm probably close to what OP was talking about, and it has certainly been integral to my progression to staff engineer, but like you I disagree with the premise that you need to be particular ways to make progress in your career.

While all of the staff engineers I work with operate at the same kind of level, I'm surrounded by staff and staff+ engineers of every stripe. From extremely introverted specialists in particular fields, all the way to extreme extroverts focusing on cross org collaboration and consensus, and every possible combination of behavior in between. That diversity is essential to our effectiveness.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#367

Post by d0liver »

ternnoburn wrote: post #194

This author is deeply deeply misunderstanding other humans. They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality. And worse yet, coming to the wrong conclusions. You do not need to be an extrovert at work to get ahead. Full stop. Does it help in some ways? Sure, but you can be equally successful as an introvert as long as you are able to communicate clearly when needs demand it. Plenty of exce…

If you don't mind my asking, what do you do?

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#368

Post by cdrini »

blueflow wrote: post #276
cdrini wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but some terms have more trouble with it than others, and if the term cannot converge on a clear, repeatable definition over time, questioning the utility of the term seems reasonable. Eg the terms "red" and "green" have largely converged on specific, useful meanings over time. Even more abstract words like "freedom" have mostly clear definitions (although definitely also have variance!). Introvert/extrovert I w…

Language is constructive, basically people make it up and the "definitions" are none, they are actually after-the-fact formalizations. Whatever humans do to the word "Introvert" now will be its "definition" in 20 years. Print out some rainbow and ask people to draw the line between "red" and "not-red". That would prove that convergence didn't happen and would nicely show why it probably never will.

I would argue if you asked 100 random people to draw a red Vs not-red line in that experiment you described, short of colour blindness, you would not see very much variance in the position of the line. That is why I believe the terms have converged on a meaning.

In fact, I think it would be very hard to construct an experiment where people did not use the term red in a consistent fashion.

I agree with you that formal definitions of words come after the fact. But meaning of words are always present; everyone who uses a word uses it with some understanding if its meaning, that they want to convey. And as words converge on a shared meaning, they become effective for communicating meanings. I'm arguing introvert/extrovert have been around for a long time, and have not converged on a consistent meaning. The terms have too much variance in meaning to be useful at communicating. One person uses the word and means something very different from when someone else uses the word. In 20 years time this variance will likely still be a problem. If the definition of a word shifts over time, that's ok as long as the variance remains low; it just means it has a new definition. But if the variance is high, it means the word isn't very useful/effective for communication.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#369

Post by jimkleiber »

fairity wrote: post #364
blueflow wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people Is this a "you" problem or a "they" problem?

Why would it matter? OP is experiencing an undesirable outcome, and assigning blame for the problem seems besides the point when the main goal is to change the outcome.

If one can't figure out the causes of certain outcomes, how does one change the outcomes?

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#370

Post by blueflow »

fairity wrote: post #364
blueflow wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people Is this a "you" problem or a "they" problem?

Why would it matter? OP is experiencing an undesirable outcome, and assigning blame for the problem seems besides the point when the main goal is to change the outcome.

Because you can reverse the situation and criticize them for being offended by everything and difficult for you to work with.
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