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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

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Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A convenient take, when you consider that (generally) extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day than introverts, because our modern Western society values extraversion more. The article is giving vibes of "extraverts are great and inherently good people, introverts are bad and need to grow up!"

"extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day than introverts" This is a grass is always greener take, and definitely not true. "because our modern Western society values extraversion more" Everybody throughout humanity has valued extraversion more. This isn't something new. Humans are social creatures and people that are more social will be more successful at life. This will never change. "introvert…

> I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts usually don't like confrontation) and other behavior that makes collaboration (which is needed in almost all business settings) a nightmare.

I could just as well say that extraversion goes along with overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and other behaviour that makes collaboration a nightmare - such as refusing to write documentation or write proper tickets because "we can have a meeting instead". But I don't - because everyone is different and you can't just generalise like that. Being an introvert doesn't mean you're bad at communication or avoid confrontation.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#282
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post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll be nitpicking but I’m not sure they are really that related. I’m an introvert and my wife have SA. TBH it’s pretty different : if I go to an event where I know nobody or where I don’t feel like I have something to say, I’ll just go and keep politely quiet. I’ll get more bored and lost in my own thoughts or just listening without talking than stressed. My wife on the other hand is like you said, terrified and exh…

> I’m not sure they are really that related. I would be very, very surprised if most people with social anxiety aren't also introverts.

But why use the same words for both when they mean different things?

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#283
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard one way a parent can help a shy child is to have them look after much younger children. Even very shy children seem to be able to manage talking to less-experienced, less-intimidating, pipsqueaks. Wonder if there's a way to take that tack.

shyness != introversion

What this guy describes is social anxiety, not introversion.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#284
post #260
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't know fills me with terror. It seems you have completely missed the point of the article: this is something you need to work on. If you don't, it will negatively impact you for your entire life.

My point is that if someone isn't as good at socializing as you are, instead of assuming that they are too lazy or "closed heart" to do better, acknowledge that it might be orders of magnitude more difficult for them than for you, and try to be understanding and helpful instead of dismissive.

One thing I’d mention is that just because someone is good at socialising in the outside doesn’t mean that they don’t have their own issues. Demonising people who can colour within the lines in this area when they make a mistake or are pushed out of their comfort zone can be exactly the same for us as it is for you guys to be told “just talk to the person”.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#285
Wow. This is an incredibly insular, and empathy devoid take. The author's binary assumption that introversion and introversion are choices are incredible.

Go and do some research on neurodivergence, and then go and have a think about how harmful this advice is.

The emotional toll that it must have taken on Aditya just to be there without some grinning goon come lolloping towards him telling him just because they can do a thing anyone can do a thing must have been incredible.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#286
My case is like this: I get no anxiety talking to people, I have nothing against talking to people, and I believe I can get my point across well enough and fluently when I need to get things done.

However, whenever there is a social gathering and such that I have to attend, my default, standard set of activities unless someone approaches me is to just look around look at my surroundings, get lost in my headspace while taking a walk around the place while tuning out others and greeting anyone who I happen to know. If I happen to be interested in having a conversation with someone, I will have it. But I'm simply not interested in people by default, or meeting people for the sake of it.

I have never spontaneously felt any inadequacy with myself when doing this. What inadequacies are there have almost exclusively have been pointed out to me by others, much in the same way the author does with Aditya here. I just don't ever feel a need to talk or force a conversation unless others (relatives and colleagues) are pressuring me to do so.

The mannerisms of the Author are what I've often heard from the management people in the companies that I've worked for and in some Linkedin posts. I'm not trying to deny at all that effective communication and networking has its benefits, but the way they talk, including the Author's article often makes me feel like they're masking an insurmountable amount of annoyance and vitriol for those who just don't want to talk. It's as if they will not accept anything other than the status quo of constant chatter and networking.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#287
post #263
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll be nitpicking but I’m not sure they are really that related. I’m an introvert and my wife have SA. TBH it’s pretty different : if I go to an event where I know nobody or where I don’t feel like I have something to say, I’ll just go and keep politely quiet. I’ll get more bored and lost in my own thoughts or just listening without talking than stressed. My wife on the other hand is like you said, terrified and exh…

> I’m not sure they are really that related. I would be very, very surprised if most people with social anxiety aren't also introverts.

There are actually many many people who are both socially anxious and extraverted. Really not uncommon. It doesn't look like that because introversion and social anxiety are so often mixed up - just like in this article. Keep in mind those psychological concepts are defined by the inner workings and motivations of people's minds, not by behavior observable from the outside.

Introversion: This person gets energy from being alone or with close friends in a routine situation. (Not the same as being lonely, mind!). They feel attracted by situations and environments promising those situations.

Extraversion: This person recharges by mingling with other people. From small talk at the water cooler to larger social gatherings. They feel attracted by social gatherings, and want to be part of them.

Social Anxiety: This person is anxious in social gatherings (of people not being close friends or family). They have feelings of inadequacy about themselves as social beings, and fear being devalued for acting wrong or - worse - being wrong.

Those concepts are related but not at all the same. Persons being both extraverted and socially anxious long for social situations involving new people, but at the same time feel inadequate of being in them. Or ruminate about their behaviour afterwards. Or actively try to get comments of positive validation from their peers during or after the gathering.

At the same time people can be introverted and not socially anxious at all. I have a colleague like that: loves working alone, doesn't need companions even for longer, more demanding projects, but at the same time has zero qualms leading a team, talking to customers, going in front of unknown audiences. It just exhausts them.

Introversion and Extraversion are concepts involving motivations: What situations do people feel attracted to.

Anxiety is essentially about fear of inadequacy, or perceived lack of agency about a situation. So not about motivation, but about a concept of self.

There are, of course, feedback loops enabling correlations like the introversion + social anxiety one. Children (adults too, for that matter) have multiple avenues of gaining validation and positive experience in live, e.g. social competency (as colleague, parent, friend, community member,...), physical performance (sports, crafting, ...), intellectual performance and so on. If they learn that they are good at a thing, they tend to do that thing more often, because the experience of competency feels good. They will experience these kinds of situations more, and thus gain more competency in these kinds of situations.

Now if a child is often ill, and can't go play outside with their peers, it won't do nothing inside, but instead probably be reading or drawing or crafting. So it will not learn social skills at that time, but will get better at drawing and crafting. If it already had a tendency to introversion, that tendency will probably get stronger.

OTOH imagine a child that was very socially active in early childhood, but then , around 12 years old, the parents moved and the child had to change schools, and got bullied in the new school. This kid probably was extraverted and now gained strong feelings of social inadequacy, of not belonging, of being somehow different or wrong as a person. They will still feel attracted to social situations, but thanks to their experience of being bullied, this will feel very stressful to them. Extraverted and socially anxious.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#288
“ Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started “

ah yes nothing says being a party host like whispering to someone the exact words they should say like they’re a child learning to socialize.

I agree with most of the other HN comments that this article, while hitting the nail on the head when talking about socialness and how that is linked to appreciation in the workplace, is not very kind to anyone who strays from this socializing.

Kind of like the author got taught he had to socialize, as a rule. and feels a disdain towards people ‘breaking’ that rather unspoken social rule

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#289

My case is like this: I get no anxiety talking to people, I have nothing against talking to people, and I believe I can get my point across well enough and fluently when I need to get things done. However, whenever there is a social gathering and such that I have to attend, my default, standard set of activities unless someone approaches me is to just look around look at my surroundings, get lost in my headspace whil…

I'd imagine the keyword is "have to attend".

If you truly have no choice then who's to blame you but if you decide to show up to a party and then proceed to walk around and look at the furniture all night then maybe you could have put a minimum amount of effort to engage with others who could have stayed at home that day?

But if you are somewhere to listen to some nice talks and then they force you to "network" then I'd say it's totally ok to sit it out and avoid anything unwanted.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not impose the "mental illness" label on people over the internet. One of the foundational requirements for any diagnosis of a mental illness is a negative effect on the person's capacity to function, and you just can't evaluate that over the internet. Its quite harmful to stigmatize peoples stories. Let people be different.

If someone is feeling deeply anxious over a social interaction, that’s a pretty clear negative effect on their capacity to function.

If someone never feels deeply anxious over a social interaction, that's a pretty clear negative effect on their capacity to function.
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