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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

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Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#91

> While the reality is, it takes effort to communicate and drains energy for everyone. This is a low effort take that depends on the ambiguity of language to sound true. "Drain" for the author apparently means literally using up a finite amount of human energy, concentration, and willpower. That's a truism. "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a he…

> "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover from.

Unless you are being hyperbolic with your usage of the word "panic attack", having one during social events is not "being an introvert," it's a medical condition.

I am an introvert and have also had unrelated panic attacks. Panic attacks effectively paralyze you, you feel a deep and uncontrollable sense of doom, often accompanied by palpitations. Sometimes you feel like you can't breathe.

If caused by social interaction, that's not a normal thing to experience, even for introverts. That is in the territory of actual medical issues: panic disorder, social anxiety disorder, etc.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#92

One thing to me is fairly obvious: people who are introverts can be social, but only for limited amounts of time. For example, I like talking a lot, but I can only do it for limited amounts of time. Maybe only a few hours a week. If I'm pushed past that point, I just don't want to chat any more. It's like I'm full of food, but with socialization. After that I find socialization immensely distasteful and irritating. T…

Yes, extroverts do understand this limited capacity. It's like when you live an ultra sedentary lifestyle, and one day you realize you can't catch your breath after walking up four flights of stairs. Like any capacity, socializing requires exercise. We are all descended from a long line of people who lived extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or two that it became possible to live a productive live by…

None of that jives with any of my observations.

In my immediate circle alone - my sister is a strong extrovert and always has been. She thrives on large groups. If she's stressed and wants to relax she'll go to a party or downtown dance club or hang out with a dozen acquaintances. She's been that way since tween. I bring her up because she's very upfront, and I trust and believe her, that social engagements alone are NOT, and never have been, hard work or effort. They're natural to her, she gains energy from them, she enjoys them tremendously, and gets recharged through them. This is not my external observation but her convincing expression. I know others like that.

Then there's me :-). Lot of that, such as parties and dance clubs and even large groups of friends, sounds awful to me. Easy on assumptions though : As per my parallel comment, I've been a client-facing consultant for 20 years. I practice and teach soft skills and emotional intelligence at fairly high level at work. Having started as a hands-on techie for the first decade of my career, I haven't written a line of code since 2018 - ALL I do now is talk to and manage and coach and mentor people, meet with clients, etc. I spend about 7 hrs a day actively engaging people professionally.

And it's still as draining as it is rewarding and enjoyable. 20 years of active practice and daily high level socialization has not meaningfully moved the needle on whether I gain energy from people, like my sister always has, or drain energy even with people I enjoy doing activity I like.

Absolutely there's detail and granularity to this - I love teaching and have been a visiting professor for 3 years at local college. I love mentoring and coaching and do it daily. But at the end do the day I strongly crave alone time to recharge after social activities (which is what I call "being an introvert"), whereas I know people (I call them extrovert) who simply don't need that, at all. The notion that simply practice can change that, hasn't been the case for anybody I know.

You can gain skills and that's indeed worthwhile! But that does not automatically alter the energy management situation.

So my apologies, but your post is the most literal proof that some extroverts don't understand this, at all, and like Freud, make wild assumptions based on limited internal experience :-/. It's less of a capacity thing, which I'll agree may get expanded, and more of what does activity do and how does it draw on that capacity.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#93
> “Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started.”

This is completely wrong-headed on the part of the host of this gathering. The correct move is "Hey, man, it looks like you don't have a lot of connections in this room. Let me introduce you to a friend of mine... [Friend], this is Aditya. [Say something interesting about Aditya to justify Friend's attention.] You two have [X] in common. Aditya, I have known Friend for [Y] years. Ask him about [Z]. etc." The host mediates the introduction for a respectful amount of time, and then walks away.

That is the function and, truthfully, the responsibility, of a host at a gathering where not everybody knows everybody.

Whereas, some people would find it impertinent for a stranger to barge in on a conversation and introduce themselves as if they were important enough to deserve attention. Maybe they are, but they may be supposed to let somebody else do that for them. And likewise, many people feel slimy going around putting on an air of self-importance. It is hardly fair to characterize this kind of sensibility as "pride" or a feeling of "disgust" toward other guests.

Read some Jane Austen for more.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#94
post #91

> While the reality is, it takes effort to communicate and drains energy for everyone. This is a low effort take that depends on the ambiguity of language to sound true. "Drain" for the author apparently means literally using up a finite amount of human energy, concentration, and willpower. That's a truism. "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a he…

> "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover from. Unless you are being hyperbolic with your usage of the word "panic attack", having one during social events is not "being an introvert," it's a medical condition. I am an introvert and have also had unrelated panic attacks. Pa…

Absolutely bizarre that you're being downvoted. Having panic attacks is not a normal reaction to any normal human situation, gp absolutely should look for medical and psychological help.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#95
post #13

It’s quite treacherous to identify yourself with labels: introvert, extrovert, conscientious, conservative, liberal, empathetic, neurodivergent, etc. The act of putting a name on some traits that you have can seem liberating: I finally know what I am, and why I’m different from others, and that’s fine. On the flipside, once you commit to a label, you lock yourself inside it, and instead of describing, it begins shapi…

As I've grown older I realize I'm all of the labels at different times of the day, different days, with different people etc. The more I take this to heart the more I grow and allow myself to have new experiences that a self label would have stopped me from doing because I'm not "that" kind of person.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#96
post #93

> “Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started.” This is completely wrong-headed on the part of the host of this gathering. The correct move is "Hey, man, it looks like you don't have a lot of connections in this room. Let me introduce you to a friend of min…

Fully agree. I read that intro section and closed the page. I didn't want advice from someone who could be so poor at this, and not even realize it. Instead of introspecting about his own contribution to the problematic interaction, he went ahead and made it the other guy's fault.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#97

To introverts I would say: just now and then try to get out of your comfort zone. Most of the time, it will feel liberating and next time it becomes much easier. Step 1. Regularly talk to strangers. Most easily it can be done at public transport or at a shop. Start with places where you are waiting for a short time. Just ask a silly question or say something about the weather. Step 2 speak up in small groups. Just sa…

Good advice but we need to change its scope: All of that works if your problem is shyness or being self conscious. And indeed there's a strong Venn diagram between shyness, quietness, self consciousness, awkwardness, and introvertness. But it's not the same. I'm inherently all of those things. After 20 years in consulting though, including dedicated training and experience, nobody believes me anymore - I've built str…

what you do - even if ALL the love for it is there in you - sounds absolutely exhausting to me (especially after as many years as you have been doing it) and I am about as extrovert as it gets, much like you are described your sister in the other comment.

is it plausible that your feels are not as closely related to you being introvert and just nature of the career itself?

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#98
post #18

Try framing it in terms of what you Need from people. Avoiding using "should" so much. It will help you become conscious of what your needs are. Confusing your needs with others needs is also a trap. We can only talk in terms of our Needs and why those needs are important to us. Anything else sounds like passing judgement and the reaction will be negative.

> Avoiding using "should" so much.

I have two phrases I use often:

"Should is not in my vocabulary"

"Should is a lazy word"

People use words like "should" and "must" to get around explaining their perspectives.

I remember early in my career, I made a request for a feature to an employee in another team. Their SW was allowing users to specify parameters that made the whole model unphysical, and it was a burden on us users to always double check that parameter "X" was not negative. The SW wouldn't fail. It would simply not give correct results (and they wouldn't be wildly wrong that you'll quickly realize it).

I requested that they simply not allow a negative value. We didn't always put one there - sometimes it was the output of another process, and I didn't want to continually check that our automation wasn't putting in unphysical values.

The response? "The engineer should be diligent in making sure the value is not negative".

Should is a lazy word. He didn't explain at all why he's rejecting the feature request. I would have preferred "Low priority - we simply don't have the time."

Start counting how often someone uses the word as a way to avoid explaining him/herself.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#100

To introverts I would say: just now and then try to get out of your comfort zone. Most of the time, it will feel liberating and next time it becomes much easier. Step 1. Regularly talk to strangers. Most easily it can be done at public transport or at a shop. Start with places where you are waiting for a short time. Just ask a silly question or say something about the weather. Step 2 speak up in small groups. Just sa…

You clearly don't know what it means to be introvert. It's not a choice, it's almost like a phobia.
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