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Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

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Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is funny how putting on a uniform instantly makes you ... stupid. It is like a part of your brain shuts off. The social behaviour regress to like 5th grade in adult men. Like of someone tells you you tie your shoes in the wrong way you become a child mentally or something.

Being a Soviet/Russian conscript is a terrible fucking lot in life. Being raped, beaten, denigrated was and remains extremely common. You're taken from wherever you had probably spent your whole life, thrown into a shitty uniform, shipped off like cattle to wherever it is that the motherland needs you, and used as an inanimate tool until you were either too broken and destroyed to function anymore, or you had managed…

I left the country when I was young, and as soon as I became of age, the military came around my old apartment to find me. I couldn't return to the country for a decade - there was absolutely no way I was going to take even the slightest chance of being in the Russian military.

This is very much the same reason I'm not going back now. It saddens me that I may never step foot there again.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#82
My grandfather was a radar operator in WW2, on a ship that was hit and damaged by opposing forces.

He told me stories of how they would make barges that would float off the side of the ship, where sailors would go to drink torpedo juice.

He claimed at the time it was only the “expired” kind that they would have to change out anyways.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Soviet/Russian conscript is a terrible fucking lot in life. Being raped, beaten, denigrated was and remains extremely common. You're taken from wherever you had probably spent your whole life, thrown into a shitty uniform, shipped off like cattle to wherever it is that the motherland needs you, and used as an inanimate tool until you were either too broken and destroyed to function anymore, or you had managed…

I left the country when I was young, and as soon as I became of age, the military came around my old apartment to find me. I couldn't return to the country for a decade - there was absolutely no way I was going to take even the slightest chance of being in the Russian military. This is very much the same reason I'm not going back now . It saddens me that I may never step foot there again.

Remember the military bukhankas rolling around in late May and early June, grabbing men off the street for conscription if they looked even a little bit like they'd just finished high school?

I've got a pretty vivid memory of seeing the 'recruiters' grabbing an amputee out of a wheelchair in broad daylight and shoving him in the back of the van along with the several other men they already had in there.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#84
post #6

See also the Mark 14 torpedo, the primary American torpedo in WWII, which didn't actually work for the first 2 years of the war because they had never bothered to actually test it because it would be too expensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

There's a lovely youtube historian, Drachinifel who covered this https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=eQ5Ru7Zu_1I

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#85
post #29

When Ethanol started being used as car fuel in Brazil (in the 70's), there were not life-threatening additives on it, so of course some people would use it to mix with drinks. The practice only stopped in the late 80's when there was a supply crisis and Brazil had to import methanol and the TV started reporting cases of people going blind due to severe methanol poisoning.

Methanol is a biproduct of fermentation, and will be part of the destillate if not done carefully. I doubt that ethanol used in car and torpedo fuel will go through the same quality control than drinking alcohol.

From what I understand, although methanol is usually present in small amounts when fermenting things, even when distilling you never really concentrate enough of it to be a problem unless you are specifically trying to produce and distill methanol. That doesn't mean they are good spirits, just not deadly. The idea that moonshine might accidentally be methanol and kill you is just prohibition propaganda to shift alcohol deaths away from the government purposefully tainting alcohols to prevent/punish people from drinking it and onto the illegal bootleggers who were providing safe drinking spirits. Methanol is always a purposefully added substance at some point if it is anywhere near poisonous levels. To produce it you don't ferment anything first, you just heat up wood until it decomposes from heat and distill off the oils and alcohols and tars that come off like how they break down coal into gases and oils. But for non-consumption purposes adding methanol to ethanol may have desirable benefits for the application, and isn't just there to poison people to prevent consumption. Sometimes it might just be cheaper than regular ethanol if you are just going to burn it.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#86
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methanol is a biproduct of fermentation, and will be part of the destillate if not done carefully. I doubt that ethanol used in car and torpedo fuel will go through the same quality control than drinking alcohol.

From what I understand, although methanol is usually present in small amounts when fermenting things, even when distilling you never really concentrate enough of it to be a problem unless you are specifically trying to produce and distill methanol. That doesn't mean they are good spirits, just not deadly. The idea that moonshine might accidentally be methanol and kill you is just prohibition propaganda to shift alcoh…

"Methanol is always a purposefully added substance at some point if it is anywhere near poisonous levels."

That's usually true. Adding methanol to ethanol can be either deliberate or accidental. Where I am (Australia) methanol and pyridine used to be added to ethanol as a denaturant so it could be sold without liquor tax and it was sold as 'Methylated Spirits' and labeled 'POISON'. If I recall the amount of methanol was 15% and the pyridine was 3%. Methanol was set at 15% with the deliberate intention of making the 'spirits' toxic and the pyridine to make it foul tasting (and pyridine itself is also toxic). At those percentages both denaturants were similar enough to ethanol as not to interfere significantly with its primarily purposes—as a solvent, fuel, etc.

Nevertheless, that didn't deter diehard drinkers/alcoholics from consuming methylated spirits and the effects on their health were catastrophic—blindness and death.

Several decades ago both methanol and pyridine were removed and replaced with denatonium (aka Bitrex) as the denaturant, which is not toxic at the level necessary for its purpose. Nevertheless, the product is still sold as 'Methylated Spirits' with the fine print calling it 'ethanol solution 95%, UN 1170', and the warning changed from 'POISON' to 'CAUTION'. The logic behind the change being that it was 'safer'—read it cost the State less in medical expenses.

I think the UK has done something similar and no doubt a number of other countries have followed suit, except I believe the US makes ethanol harder to get and usually substitutes isopropanol/rubbing alcohol for domestic use (someone in the US please update me on the rules there).

Since the advent of denatonium as a denaturant, it seems to me there is no need to add methanol and I reckon it ought to be highly illegal to do so. If ethanol/methanol mixtures are needed for some purpose then they should be strictly labeled and denatonium a mandated additive.

What concerns me is the accidental addition of methanol to ethanol (to 'Methylated Spirits'). I use a lot of ethanol in the form of Methylated Spirits for cleaning and as a solvent as it's a much cheaper substitute for isopropanol and I've noticed occasionally that its odor is very different (once every 3 or 4 months on weekly purchases). In fact, I've noticed the odor of formaldehyde on more than one occasion (and that's not the only impurity I've detected by nose).

This tells me there's very little control on the distribution of industrial solvents (in this class that is). I'd suggest tanks/tankers, etc. aren't properly flushed when changing product and or such. If distribution equipment isn't being cleaned properly then people aren't being careful and worse could easily happen.

From my experience it seems to me it's still a very risky business to assume that 'industrial' ethanol is actually just that (95% ethanol, 5% H2O and trace denatonium). There's no way I'd ever risk drinking the stuff—that is assuming I could stand the taste of the excruciatingly bitter denatonium.

I'd be interested to know how other countries now handle the rules in regard to ethanol distribution.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#87
post #64
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methanol is a biproduct of fermentation, and will be part of the destillate if not done carefully. I doubt that ethanol used in car and torpedo fuel will go through the same quality control than drinking alcohol.

Ethanol is an antidote for methanol. Methanol is a very poisonous by itself, but when mixed with ethanol, its consumption might end without long term consequences like blindness or death. The deadliness of their mix depends on a ratio, I believe that 50/50 is survivable. So if you are not very picky when it comes to drinks, it doesn't really matter if your ethanol has 10% of methanol.

"I believe that 50/50 is survivable. "

Perhaps so, but is that a one-off shot/dosing or habitually (as an alcoholic)?

In my other post I pointed out that denatured ethanol sold as 'Methylated Spirits' used to have 15% methanol and 3% pyridine as denaturants and in practice this combination was considered highly toxic and that's why the denaturants were changed to nontoxic denatonium (ie 95% ethanol, 5% H2O and trace denatonium).

For Methylated Spirits the methanol/pyridine ratios were set deliberately to be toxic and the product was labeled 'POISON'.

Whether the pyridine added significantly to the toxicity I cannot say. Nor do I know why the ratios were set as they were. No doubt a check of how that standard was set and the death rate stats before and after the denatonium was added would tell the actual story.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#88
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I recall correctly, there might be benzene remaining in the alcohol from the water removal process.

Benzene really only shows up in traces if you're trying to get absolute ethanol (100%). You can distill up to 95% ethanol (the EtOH-water azeotrope) without introducing anything else.

Right, the EtOH/azeotrope is the normal domestic (industrial grade) product available where I am (Australia), it's available in all supermarkets, etc. That said, it often has impurities that ought not be present (see my other post).

Here, 'absolute ethanol' is typically 99%. No doubt H2O is a significant part of that last 1% but going on my experience with 95% EtOH I wouldn't be a bit surprised about it being benzene and it's likely there's other undesirable stuff as well.

BTW, over the years I've bought a lot of industrial grade 'absolute ethanol' which I use in woodworking as a solvent for shellac. 95% EtOH is unsatisfactory as the water in it often causes the shellac to turn a cloudy/milky colour.

I have to buy the 99% grade in 20-litre plastic containers as usually that's the smallest amount that's supplied. Moreover, it's much more expensive, at least double the price and on par with that of isopropanol.

Given its price and comparative rarity I doubt whether its consumption would be a signifiant problem. Anecdotally, the stuff I buy seems to have significantly more denatonium than the normal EtOH, quite some time after using it I've momentarily held my (dry) hand on my face near my mouth and the denatonium is almost overpowering. That's not the case with normal domestic EtOH (in the same situation denatonium is present but nowhere near as objectionable).

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#89
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methanol is a biproduct of fermentation, and will be part of the destillate if not done carefully. I doubt that ethanol used in car and torpedo fuel will go through the same quality control than drinking alcohol.

From what I understand, although methanol is usually present in small amounts when fermenting things, even when distilling you never really concentrate enough of it to be a problem unless you are specifically trying to produce and distill methanol. That doesn't mean they are good spirits, just not deadly. The idea that moonshine might accidentally be methanol and kill you is just prohibition propaganda to shift alcoh…

Re: moonshining

Some quick notes about "it's just propaganda" with some "regulation is hard to do without tons of side effects" undercurrents:

1. When distilling you DO concentrate methanol but as a waste product. An unethical moonshiner could still sell this or cut it back into the main product (although the latter isn't usually a problem because of the concentration and the fact that ethanol is a treatment for methanol proving). You would definitely know if you were drinking straight methanol but you might not know in a cocktail (or might not care - lots of crazy stuff in these comments about drinking various dangerous liquids).

2. Other things went into the shine. A very common one was dynamite because nitroglycerin helps fermentation continue at low temperatures, like out in the woods where your secret still might have to be. Nitroglycerin can do all sorts of things to you - it is sometimes prescribed as a heart medicine.

3. Moonshining is, by definition, a criminal enterprise and things-you-might-not-like happen all the time just like with illegal drugs today. One common blindness cause wasn't actually methanol but antifreeze and other "engine gunk" because you could put your new, un-aged shine into things like car engines and it would come out the other side with the impression of being aged or in some way better.

So there is some fun-fact nuance on the "moonshine could make you go blind" lore! I like to respond to that with "yes, but probably not for the reason you think!"

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#90
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When it comes to drinking rubbing alcohol, the digestive tract suffers the most, even when only swallowing a small amount. The body metabolizes these extremely high alcohol levels into acetone. If consumed to intoxication, the substance can lead to organ damage. Because it's a central nervous system depressant, side effects can include dizziness, headaches and inebriation. Because it's a gastrointestinal irritant, i…

Please see my response to a sibling commenter. Nearly everything above is also true of ethanol. Drinking too much water is also lethal. I take care of plenty of patients that drink IPA. It is not uncommon in both people that think it will kill them and do it as a suicide attempt, as well as people that are desperate for a buzz but can't access ethanol (I work on the Navajo nation where ethanol is illegal and more dif…

Fair point. At high enough levels, ethyl alcohol is also a pretty effective poison.
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