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Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

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Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#41

Post by WillAdams »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #38
WillAdams wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe just make a PDF and publish that to the site? I am doing that at: https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/gcodepre... (but admittedly it's a very different project and no copyright complexities)

Honestly, for me personally and on this specific project with its specific history of copyright issues (look it up!), that would be crossing the line into disrespecting the copyright situation. Websites are ethereal, in a sense, as they are easy to switch off and hard to copy and distribute. PDFs and books are the opposite. Sure, websites get archived and repos get forked, but I think PDFs and books fall into a diffe…

Cogent points.

If you are able to get permission for a game code and then do this sort of analysis as a Literate Program and publish that as a book, you'd be in rather rarified company, and I'd certainly buy a copy.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#42

Post by ddingus »

danielbln wrote: post #11
glimshe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long copyrights are a cancer in our society. Just notice the fear in his writing - "without hesitation". We're talking about a ~40 year piece of work here. Patents last 20 years and people keep filing them in the millions. We remain an inventive species. Obviously the protection works. Why do we need to protect copyrights for near a century?

Two reasons: lobbying and the Mouse.

The Mouse has not come back for a third round. Yet.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#43

Post by hathawsh »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #38
WillAdams wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe just make a PDF and publish that to the site? I am doing that at: https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/gcodepre... (but admittedly it's a very different project and no copyright complexities)

Honestly, for me personally and on this specific project with its specific history of copyright issues (look it up!), that would be crossing the line into disrespecting the copyright situation. Websites are ethereal, in a sense, as they are easy to switch off and hard to copy and distribute. PDFs and books are the opposite. Sure, websites get archived and repos get forked, but I think PDFs and books fall into a diffe…

You don't need to be the copyright owner. All you need is a license from the copyright owner. It can't hurt to contact Ian Bell and see what you can negotiate. http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/

Edit: never mind, it sounds like Ian sold his copyright and now there's a mess. Hmm. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/03/elite-dangerous-crowd...

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#44

Post by MarkMoxon »

hathawsh wrote: post #43
MarkMoxon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, for me personally and on this specific project with its specific history of copyright issues (look it up!), that would be crossing the line into disrespecting the copyright situation. Websites are ethereal, in a sense, as they are easy to switch off and hard to copy and distribute. PDFs and books are the opposite. Sure, websites get archived and repos get forked, but I think PDFs and books fall into a diffe…

You don't need to be the copyright owner. All you need is a license from the copyright owner. It can't hurt to contact Ian Bell and see what you can negotiate. http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/ Edit: never mind, it sounds like Ian sold his copyright and now there's a mess. Hmm. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/03/elite-dangerous-crowd...

Well, exactly. This project is a hobby, and I’d like to try to keep it as my happy place!

Besides, I’ve published PDFs of my travel writing sites, and the thought of trying to keep a code repository, a website and a PDF in sync fills me with dread…

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#45

Post by anyfoo »

mgkimsal wrote: post #30

Very curious how Mark Moxon was able to understand and comment so much of the code. Just... a very big fan with a lot of free time? No idea how this will be formatted, but the level of understanding in the comments is quite deep for just having access to the original source. Or did the original source have this level of comments as well? How long does a project like this take to comment? .QQ22 SKIP 2 ; The two hypers…

The comments you pasted in particular are about stuff that makes sense and that someone who wants to fully understand some source code can readily figure out, if they put their mind to it.

It's when things don't make sense that it gets interesting, because then you have to guess the original author's intentions, suspect a bug, question your understanding, or deal with other uncertainties. That's usually when a bunch of question marks start to appear in reverse engineering comments (e.g. "increment xyz???")...

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#46

Post by MarkMoxon »

anyfoo wrote: post #45
mgkimsal wrote: post #30

Very curious how Mark Moxon was able to understand and comment so much of the code. Just... a very big fan with a lot of free time? No idea how this will be formatted, but the level of understanding in the comments is quite deep for just having access to the original source. Or did the original source have this level of comments as well? How long does a project like this take to comment? .QQ22 SKIP 2 ; The two hypers…

The comments you pasted in particular are about stuff that makes sense and that someone who wants to fully understand some source code can readily figure out, if they put their mind to it. It's when things don't make sense that it gets interesting, because then you have to guess the original author's intentions, suspect a bug, question your understanding, or deal with other uncertainties. That's usually when a bunch…

I keep a list of everything that isn’t 100% clear in my commentary, here:

https://elite.bbcelite.com/about_site/to-do_list.html

This is not a big list, and these are all pretty subtle aspects of the game. After 4 years of analysis, I think we’re pretty close to understanding pretty much everything, which is nice.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#47

Post by hathawsh »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #44
hathawsh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to be the copyright owner. All you need is a license from the copyright owner. It can't hurt to contact Ian Bell and see what you can negotiate. http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/ Edit: never mind, it sounds like Ian sold his copyright and now there's a mess. Hmm. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/03/elite-dangerous-crowd...

Well, exactly. This project is a hobby, and I’d like to try to keep it as my happy place! Besides, I’ve published PDFs of my travel writing sites, and the thought of trying to keep a code repository, a website and a PDF in sync fills me with dread…

Good for you! Keep it simple.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#48

Post by Lerc »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #25
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #24

Has anybody done something similar, but converted to a modern language?

Yes. The original Elite was reverse-engineered into C by Christian Pinder as part of the Elite: The New Kind project. The source is out there. It's a brilliant bit of work.

Would you have any objection to your version being used as an AI test?

It seems plausible that AIs could port this code to other architecures. It seems like a good large scale task that most systems probably can't manage right now, but perhaps soon.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#49

Post by astrobe_ »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #24

Has anybody done something similar, but converted to a modern language?

Oolite [1] is implemented in Objective-C and scripted in Javascript. The "strict mode" base game has the look'n'feel of the original - there's even an option for wireframe display somewhere - but its vast ecosystem of mods (500+ last time I played, some years ago) is much more interesting.

I don't play it anymore because I'm more interested in building games and game building now (with Luanti [2]), but it is IMO one of the top FOSS titles.

[1] https://oolite.space/ [2] https://www.luanti.org/

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#50

Post by astrobe_ »

tialaramex wrote: post #28
MarkMoxon wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The original Elite was reverse-engineered into C by Christian Pinder as part of the Elite: The New Kind project. The source is out there. It's a brilliant bit of work.

Although C probably counted as a modern language back then (after all it's not B) today I think "modern" probably means at least Java and likely something from this century like Rust or Typescript.

"Modern" means "we fixed the deficiencies of the old project and introduced our own". When I read "modern" I understand it's likely to be a variation of the second system effect [1]. When it's not just advertisement/PR BS.

When it's part of a request, it generally means "I don't know tech XYZ but I'm pretty sure I could enjoy it and contribute if it was using a tech I know". Which is generally a form of procrastination.

I dislike Javascript and I don't know Objective-C, and it didn't prevent me to tinker with Oolite, which uses both, because I like the game (now, tbh assembly is "hardcore" so OP's request is legitimate).

[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...

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