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Updates to H-1B

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Re: Updates to H-1B

#201

Post by rbanffy »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #144
s1artibartfast wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mixing up purpose and effect. The purpose is to provide more and cheaper STEM workers. The effect is downward pressure on wages. Phrased differently, the goal is to help industry, not hurt workers. Hurting some workers is an acceptable cost, not the goal. One idea is that having a thriving industrial ecosystem helps those same workers more than the downward pressure.

As somebody who does not live and work in the US, it seems plausible to me that the H1B system helps prevent other countries from obtaining similar talent hubs as Sillicon Valley. A lot of the talent is in the US, which attracts more companies, which attracts more talent, which means it's easier to go to the US and work there and start companies there than to do it anywhere else.

There’s also the easier financing, but yes - I’m sure the outcome is dominated by the network effect of having denser talent. That’s one of the reasons Silicon Valley is so hard to replicate elsewhere.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#202

Post by remarkEon »

kqgnkqgn wrote: post #120

Seem like sensible changes, though more is still needed. Requiring H1B holders to leave the country to renew paperwork is an insane anachronism. The per-country caps also seem like a throwback to the early 1900's era immigration exclusion policies. Re: the concerns over "immigrants taking our jobs!". As a native-born American working in a large tech company today - the threat is very clearly not from H1B's and other…

>It's much much better for America if tech companies hire workers in the US, regardless of whether they are citizens. Americans are eligible for those jobs, and that money stays within our economy. Versus employing workers elsewhere, where American's can't easily be hired, and those resources leave the US.

I want to pick on this point, because it's the general refrain about this topic. If there is some thing that American workers can't do in an in-demand field, and the government sets up a system to allow non-citizens to do those jobs, most people will say that this "helps" America. But does it? If the education pipeline is inadequately preparing Americans for being competitive in this in-demand field then perhaps that is the problem that should be addressed. Right now it feels like we have a (highly suspect) "labor shortage" that is addressed via immigration, which doesn't send a signal back to the educational/training infrastructure that they're doing something wrong.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#203

Post by PessimalDecimal »

breadwinner wrote: post #147
crmd wrote: post #68

It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?

US tech exports in 2018 was $338 billion. Tech is our biggest export by far. Think of the US tech industry as a siphon that sucks in wealth from foreign countries. Would you want to make that siphon bigger or smaller? If you want to make that siphon bigger — and more competitive — how would you do it? By limiting the people that can work in tech to whoever companies can hire locally, or by bringing in the smartest pe…

Does "The US" siphon that money off? Or Meta, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. siphon that money off? And where and to whom does it go from there?

The major benefit of reducing or eliminating the H1B visa program is that those companies can continue to do well, and Americans can do well along with them.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#204

Post by rbanffy »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #156
tssva wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the purpose is cheaper STEM workers than downward pressure on wages is a goal and not just an effect.

The goal isnt to hurt workers for its own sake. The goal is to help industry. If harm was the goal, something like a STEM worker tax or cutting R&D tax incentives would be easier.

This argument is kind of “I’m going to extract all your blood, but it’s not to kill you, but to increase my profits”.

You can’t really separate the two sides of the same coin.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#205

Post by strongpigeon »

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #161

A supposed shortage of qualified US applicants for tech jobs, especially software developers, doesn't jibe with the huge numbers of US developers currently looking for work, including highly experienced older workers suffering from age discrimination. I'd be surprised if more than 5-10% of H-1B positions are ones where the hiring company has even looked for US applicants.

Good news: the USCIS makes this data available! [0]

Google, Microsoft and Meta definitely look for (and hire!) US applicants. One can reasonably have a gripe with the consulting companies on there (Infosys, Tata, Cognizant, etc.) but they don't represent 90-95% of H-1B issued.

[0] https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-and-studies/h-1b-employe...

Re: Updates to H-1B

#206

Post by rbanffy »

whatshisface wrote: post #107
mportela wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that's the O-1 visa, not the H-1B.

That's a sign of how accepted it has become to say that you can't find any local workers that know Python when filling out the H1-B forms. The requirement is there but it's normally overlooked. "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce [...]" https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

At some point it becomes “couldn’t obtain the required talent at the prices the business was willing to pay”.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#207

Post by BJones12 »

kqgnkqgn wrote: post #120

Seem like sensible changes, though more is still needed. Requiring H1B holders to leave the country to renew paperwork is an insane anachronism. The per-country caps also seem like a throwback to the early 1900's era immigration exclusion policies. Re: the concerns over "immigrants taking our jobs!". As a native-born American working in a large tech company today - the threat is very clearly not from H1B's and other…

> The per-country caps also seem like a throwback to the early 1900's era immigration exclusion policies.

Canada does not have that and it is going very poorly. Lots of people are calling for the implementation of the same policy.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#209

Post by risyachka »

whatshisface wrote: post #155
strongpigeon wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is incorrect. People with exceptional abilities are covered under EB-1 green cards (and O-1 visas). H-1B was created to bring people in specialty occupations requiring a bachelor's degree or equivalent experience. A Java developer definitely meets the bar (with the right degree or experience).

It's impossible to truthfully state on an H1-B form that the US labor market can't provide an experienced Java developer.

True, but at the same time immigrants have nothing to lose and everything to gain, thus in many cases they will work harder/longer and as result often be more skilled than an average developer.

And in general skilled immigration has many times over been proven to only benefit the country and that java developer you mention.

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