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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#651

Post by lolinder »

quasse wrote: post #530
lolinder wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like with so many things, what terrifies me is where you draw the line. The cases you're describing—where someone currently has to choose between paying ridiculous amounts of money to continue living in pain while confined to a hospital bed versus dying in terrible pain because the doctors are forbidden from helping you along—these are the easy ones. But we also have stories here of people deciding to die while they'…

> At some point that net loss must overrule the individual's autonomy. I'm curious why you think of this as such a concrete fact. It is hard to understand that you would consider it your right to override such a core component of human autonomy (the choice to continue living) because they owe you/society something. If someone's suffering is so great (be it physical *or* mental) that they have reached a point where th…

> It is hard to understand that you would consider it your right to override such a core component of human autonomy (the choice to continue living) because they owe you/society something.

I'm curious why you consider individualism to be the default state that should be assumed, while my very broad statement that there is some level of social responsibility that overrules individual autonomy at some point (where that point is being the question) is the one that needs justification. I'm specifically calling out that I'm unsure where that line is, just that there is a threshold where individual entitlement must give way to the needs of the community.

This has been the default position of every human society we're aware of, so much so that it's essentially the definition of a society. It's wired into our biology. Radical individualism that teaches otherwise is a very new phenomenon.

That said, neither position can be argued for logically, because they operate on totally different axioms.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#652

Post by svieira »

Salgat wrote: post #291
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

I know it's morbid to discuss but the relief of financial burden on society is also significant. Not only do they die with dignity, but they are giving back to society.

And there it is - "Lebensunwertes Leben" [1], but compassionately

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/21/magazine/german-doctors-a...

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#653

Post by dathinab »

guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

There is a HUGE amount of things you can criticize about MAID specifically (and should) but honestly there are only a few reason why we shouldn't let the living dead go:

- it's a slippery slope

- they are young, they might revive (metaphorically speaking)

- you believe god will punish them with eternal suffering or something, but then a lot of religions are fine with monks willfully passing one "through meditation" in old age

To be clear I mean "in general". Wrt. MAID specifically e.g., a week seem .... very short ... enough for some short term depressive bout or mental leap of judgment to end your live. But then like I said there is a lot to criticize about MAID.

But granting the living dead peace is, I think, not the problem here.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#654

Post by carlosjobim »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #601
darth_avocado wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But denying a full grown adult control over their life decisions is cruel and unduly authoritarian. You’re assuming a clear state of mind and perfect circumstances. Suicidal thoughts are very common in depression. I would say giving people with depression access to euthanasia is more cruel than forcing them to seek help. Suicidal thoughts are also common in people who are struggling financially or people who have c…

It is horrifyingly cruel to deny someone the option of death without also solving the problem that made them want it.

It is completely impossible to deny anybody the option of death unless you have them imprisoned.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#655

Post by ElevenLathe »

GordonS wrote: post #203
gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

Right, but there's a problem - the UK is in a real mess! Social services, medical services, all the services are underfunded and crumbling. There is a cost of living crisis as wages have barely moved in 15 years, food banks are everywhere, and now "multibanks" are popping up. Our country first needs to ensure that people can choose to live , and if needed be cared for; nobody should feel pushed into assisted dying be…

The US is a mess too, and isn't likely to get better. This is in fact the reason I firmly hope some form of legal assisted suicide is available when I get old enough to need it. Societies with no safety net, where anyone -- even the reasonably well-off, like myself -- can end up unhoused with no medical care through a stroke or two of bad luck, need this right the most.

If we had a functioning system for providing the necessities of life for everyone, suicide would obviously be less necessary.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#656

Post by coffeefirst »

nashashmi wrote: post #168
dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

> why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be Because we disagree that society is individualistic. We are social creatures, not individualist creatures. And we need people around us. Including you needing your grandma. And she needs people like you. turn the question around: why do people feel easy escapes are ok? We came in this world and were assisted in our upbringing and…

Because I’ve seen the slow end and I wouldn’t wish that degree of suffering on anyone.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#657

Post by jrnichols »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #606
tokioyoyo wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the neighbourhood in Canada with a lot of elder people. I mentioned in one of my previous comments as well, and MAiD is probably one of the best things that happened in our country in the past decade. I have distant relatives who took the MAiD way out (one because of the age, the other one terminal illness). It's not very uncommon to hear once every quarter in the coffee shop in my neighbourhood people chat…

I've been in many discussions over the decades about this--and I see a huge skew: those who have never seen someone have a bad death tend to think euthanasia is a bad thing, those that have had someone close die a bad death tend to have a recognition that there are situations worse than death.

I've been a paramedic for a long time and I completely agree with this. Years ago I may have been against something like MAID, but once I got into healthcare and especially this job, I now fully support it. It's something that I would hope is there for myself when I need it.

If it's not, unfortunately, I've seen what people will do anyway. Allowing people to die with dignity and on their own terms is something that I believe in.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#658

Post by malshe »

guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

> In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit his family, apparently drive around his hobby farm one more time and then that was it. He didn't want to deal with being alone and seriously ill.

For some reason this made me emotional. I think I would make the same choice if I were in this position.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#659

Post by margalabargala »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #621
margalabargala wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying a wingsuit out of an airplane as part of a skydive is not particularly dangerous. It's the base jumping, wingsuit or no, that is extremely dangerous.

AFIAK you don't have a reserve when you're using a wingsuit.

You're thinking of BASE jumping. Base jumpers do not use reserves generally.

Someone jumping out of an airplane with a wingsuit is wearing an ordinary skydiving rig complete with reserve and AAD.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#660

Post by spauldo »

darth_avocado wrote: post #464
caseyohara wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides on the duration of the waiting period? Why can’t people be in charge of their own lives? Especially people in their 80s, they have earned the right to agency. It reminds me of OB/GYN providers that deny childless women sterilization procedures – even when they are in their 30s – ostensibly on the risk that the woman might change their mind about having children. Some people know things for certain and the…

> But denying a full grown adult control over their life decisions is cruel and unduly authoritarian. You’re assuming a clear state of mind and perfect circumstances. Suicidal thoughts are very common in depression. I would say giving people with depression access to euthanasia is more cruel than forcing them to seek help. Suicidal thoughts are also common in people who are struggling financially or people who have c…

Quite a few of us believe you shouldn't require seat belts for adults.
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