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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#491

Post by voisin »

guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

> he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead

This is wild. How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire?

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#492

Post by [deleted] »

aristofun wrote: post #473
pwillia7 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you view it as disgusting? I have a great fear of sullying my good name and burdening my family before I get out of here

1. Its not you who started your life - its not for you to rationally decide when it’s over. It’s just a premeditated murder nothing less. Logic and ethics 101 2. Who are you to decide for your closed ones what is good for them? I sincerely wish you will have a decent loving relationship withthem so they cherish every day spent with you. No matter what is your condition.

[deleted]

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#493

Post by fellowniusmonk »

pj_mukh wrote: post #278
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

My dad (age 75) got diagnosed with ALS and within a month of the diagnosis opted for MAID. He had only just lost control of one leg, but he knew what was coming. As much as we begged him for more time, he didn't want any of it. Till his dying breath he kept repeating how thankful he was that he lived in a country that didn't force him to live on when he didn't want to. He was a clear Track 1 case, and I realize Track…

Yeah man, it does suck. I do wish I'd had more time with both my parents, they both died really early in their 50s, I don't think you can ever have "enough" time.

I wish my mother had been given the option in her early 50s, the number of people punished by authoritarian governments that deny self determinism and force people to be put through experiences literally worse than torture is mind boggling, I cannot fathom it.

I don't think anyone who has seen it even a single time can honestly make slippery slope arguments, I have to assume it's ignorance and that these people are simply "actually" nerds doing recreational theory crafting. I assume it's the same headspace as flat earthers, it doesn't effect me so why should I care about aligning my thoughts with the real world, let me invent theoretical overlords and victims and argue about this new synthetic world that exists in my imagination.

I just can't be uncharitable enough to believe a person who has seen it first hand, that a person would embrace such unfettered cruelty as to deny a person living in constant hell a drop of water.

That being said... fuck, back in 2000 I did meet a bunch of people that denied hiv existed and said even if it did it was a punishment on gay people and it would be better if it wasn't cured so they would be scared and "behave" (yes, I personally met these people, the non-existence was rare but the "shouldn't develop treatment" was not a minority view in the city I lived in at the time.)

After my mother died, for a while I volunteered with "No one dies alone.", I doubt a single person who has done so for any length of time is going to argue "slippery slope".

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#494

Post by jzb »

lolinder wrote: post #481
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #266

Anyone who has worked at a hospital can tell you how many people die in needless pain and suffering when nothing more can really be done for them. They just wait out the clock in pain or do increasingly horrible procedures that give them a little more time with terrible quality of life. 5% is probably an underestimate of that number. Nurses/doctors don't like to speak up about that part and people don't want to confr…

Like with so many things, what terrifies me is where you draw the line. The cases you're describing—where someone currently has to choose between paying ridiculous amounts of money to continue living in pain while confined to a hospital bed versus dying in terrible pain because the doctors are forbidden from helping you along—these are the easy ones. But we also have stories here of people deciding to die while they'…

"There are cases where an individual's choice to end it all early would be a net loss for their immediate community, and there are cases where it would be a net loss for the wider community and the state. At some point that net loss must overrule the individual's autonomy."

I'm presuming these are situations where a person has a terminal illness or something where it's a matter of time until they are disabled / not mobile / in great pain and so forth. What right does anyone else have to demand that a person continue living against their will in those scenarios? Why does a person have to wait for life to be unbearable before they can opt out?

My father died due to dementia. When he was of sound mind, he was very, very clear that he'd prefer to be dead than diminished that way. Unfortunately his condition crept up on him and he didn't live where assisted suicide was an option anyway. I'm convinced that caring for him actually killed his wife before her time, by contributing to her stress and so forth. (She died of a heart attack about 9 months before he did, despite being a decade+ younger.)

We don't give human beings the same dignity we give pets who are clearly dying because we have misguided ideas about longevity being more important than quality.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#495

Post by lucubratory »

okaram wrote: post #163
rich_sasha wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my mind the main obstacle is kind of orthogonal: how do you protect the people who don't want to go, being pressured or manipulated. I agree that if someone is really, independently and committedly deciding to go, you shouldn't stop them. But how do you express that test in a bureaucratic, legalistic framework? In a friend's family, there was a big rift as one family member in direct line of inheritance was accuse…

The way most countries who have it (including Canada) have solved it is to add waiting periods, and layers of reviews. In Canada, you need two different doctors to sign off on it. If you're not actively dying, you also have a 90-day period of reflection. And you have to be of sound mind. This seems to me like good enough safeguards, don't you think?

The system in Canada results in the state killing homeless and disabled people rather than offering them support.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#496

Post by paulcole »

voisin wrote: post #491
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

> he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead This is wild. How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire?

> How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire

Personally I don’t think they should. Only I know what’s in my head.

I think my rules would be:

1. Terminal diagnosis at any age - No questions asked.

2. Over 70 - No questions asked — just request MAID and get it.

3. Over 50 but under 70 - Have to request MAID 2 times, separated by 1 month waiting period. Waiting period resets after a year.

4. Under 50 - Have to request MAID 3 times, each separated by 1 month waiting period. Waiting period resets after 6 months.

I’d also be in favor of no questions asked at all in any situation.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#497

Post by standardUser »

dogman1050 wrote: post #119

After watching my father die with COPD, it because obvious that euthanasia happens in the US all the time. He opted out of lung-reduction surgery and was ready to die. So the hospital withheld IV hydration and provided a morphine drip and he was gone in 36 hours. How long can one live without water, a few days max? So that's what killed him. My sister-in-law who's a physician told me that's how it's typically done. I…

> So the hospital withheld IV hydration and provided a morphine drip and he was gone in 36 hours.

I watched loved ones die this way. It's cruel, absurd and grotesque. A doctor will look you dead in the eye and say "your loved one will be dead within a few days" and instead of killing them mercifully you are forced to watch them die of dehydration. A maddening and indefensible relic that I believe younger generations will abolish. There's obviously far more complicated end of life situations, but this particular case is extremely common.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#498

Post by voisin »

Cpoll wrote: post #458
eastbound wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with MAiD is I’m not sure the subject really decided it. Forged signatures do exist (a lot) and you’re only a socialist state away from trying to save on public health expenditures by incinerating unwilling patients after pretending their agreement. Without much trace than two witnesses who say “He said it”. Not like it already happened for handicapped people in Germany. I’m quite sure it already h…

You call this "fraud," but aren't you describing murder? So in essence, you're suggesting that doctors are murdering people because of incentives?

I wonder why OP thinks doctors would have any incentive to do this. It doesn’t benefit them personally and there is just a vague benefit of lower medical care costs provincially.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#499

Post by encoderer »

encoderer wrote: post #351

What if governments couldn’t create cute names like MAID? I know it seems silly that a cute name would make something more likable because it shouldnt but i think probably it does, and what is the defense for having them anyway?

Downvotes but nobody can explain why we have cute palatable name for a government initiate related to killing people.

We don’t have one for execution. Wouldn’t it be absurd if somebody coined an acronym for it like WOAP?

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#500

Post by deanCommie »

lucubratory wrote: post #495
okaram wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way most countries who have it (including Canada) have solved it is to add waiting periods, and layers of reviews. In Canada, you need two different doctors to sign off on it. If you're not actively dying, you also have a 90-day period of reflection. And you have to be of sound mind. This seems to me like good enough safeguards, don't you think?

The system in Canada results in the state killing homeless and disabled people rather than offering them support.

Does it? Or is this what anti-euthanasia advocates are spreading as misinformation around to acquire the support of progressives to their cause (which is driven not out of a care for homeless and disabled people, but out of religious/conservative mindsets)

Keep mind: I'm not asking "Do those cases ever happen"? Of course they do. There's already been stories. The question is what are the statistics. Every policy, every procedure, every decision can have mistakes and negative outcomes. Some homeless and disabled people have been offered euthanasia. Those cases should be investigated and the policies should be updated. But nothing will be perfect.

You can say "if you can't have a perfect system then you shouldn't have it at all." and while that may be philosophically justifiable in the same way that "I'd rather let 10,000 guilty people go free than convict 1 innocent person" is, but it's important to remember that despite that we still convict innocent people.

Some trans people regret their transition. They're a tiny minority. Some people abuse welfare. They're a tiny minority. Some people are pushed towards euthanasia when they shouldn't be. They're a tiny minority.

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