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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

bbc.com

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#341

Post by bongodongobob »

hattmall wrote: post #298
caseyohara wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides on the duration of the waiting period? Why can’t people be in charge of their own lives? Especially people in their 80s, they have earned the right to agency. It reminds me of OB/GYN providers that deny childless women sterilization procedures – even when they are in their 30s – ostensibly on the risk that the woman might change their mind about having children. Some people know things for certain and the…

The issue is that every OB/GYN has seen patients that regret the decision. And for most they will have seen instances where that regret ultimately led to suicide. Do you really want to be the doctor that didn't press for more consideration for a patient that ultimately takes their own life? I get the idea of giving women control but as a doctor it's also their right to refuse a procedure to not bear that burden. It's…

You can't regret dying. Let people do what they want.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#342

Post by karencarits »

RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #268
karencarits wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I wondered, when you described feeling "really sad" and the sense that people "might as well have been dead," I'm wondering if you're speaking about your own emotional response or trying to convey how the individuals themselves felt about their situation? Edited to sound less harsh

Well, they experienced extended physical suffering and having the mental acuity of a toddler. Feel free to try to convince me that not being able to recognise your own kids and the person you have been married with for seventy years while gradually fully losing your hearing and sight and not being able to leave a bed is somehow a worthy experience. I personally question if you can even talk of experiencing anything b…

Thank you for clarifying! I've edited my comment to - hopefully - sound less confrontational

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#343

Post by gambiting »

Yeul wrote: post #329
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

[flagged]

Well that entire dogma is giving us monsters like Mother Theresa who thought that by letting people in her care suffer she made it more likely they will make it to heaven - and well, the Catholic Church has agreed with that interpretation and made her a Saint.

This was touched upon in a game called Indika released this year......there's a story there how a guy ended the suffering of his young child who was in constant pain, and was told by a priest during confession time "well you see by killing your son you condemned your soul to eternity in hell, but your child is now definitely in heaven, so actually you did a good thing by sacrificing yourself!". And so the guy went and killed the rest of his family, having come to a logical conclusion that he can't get any more condemned to hell than he already is, but if he guarantees that his entire family goes into heaven then surely that's an absolutely amazing thing to do. I don't know if this was based on a true story or not, but the logic totally applies.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#344

Post by nashashmi »

itishappy wrote: post #232
nashashmi wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! People feel like they cannot live alone or they cannot want that someone else be caused hardship (time or money) because of their difficulty. I feel like I will get downvoted to oblivion just because people vehemently disagree, but THIS CANNOT be the meaning and choice behind death. It is simply immature, arrogant, and selfish. But more plainly, it is suicidal / self-relentment.

> It is simply immature, arrogant, and selfish. How is the desire to avoid burdening others selfish? "You can't choose to kill yourself because that would be suicide" is a tautology, not an argument. What's the basis for these beliefs?

I will define it for you:

immature: "I know what life means and this is not the meaning of life" OR "we should not burden others with our remorse and pain and so share nothing with anyone lest it cause them pain too." (I hope I don't have to elaborate how this is immature.)

arrogant: "who knows better what I need than me? I know it well enough that no one else matters"

selfish: "If I am the one who wants something, why can't I have it? who are you to say I can't have what I want?"

suicide is a mental disease and a psychological imbalance. The suicidal need a redefinition of what life means.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#345

Post by nicoburns »

karencarits wrote: post #239
kerkeslager wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immature, arrogant, and selfish is a good description of a person who demands other people stay alive despite immense suffering, just so you can feel morally superior and not have to experience loss.

I agree that we should avoid such terms in general in this forum as it degrades the discussion. I think we can all agree that these are complex ethical questions where several values are at stake and there isn't one obviously superior ethical stand. What I read from your comment, is that you think peoples fear of loss impacts the discussion to much and shouldn't be given much weight in the question?

Not the OP, but I think fear of loss is part of it. But a lot of it is just an entrenched/assumed (and IMO not particularly justified) moral valuation of life above all else.

My own view is that a happy life has value. Death is neutral (for the person who dies - it's affect on others may be either positive or negative). And that (all else being equal), causing someone to live an unhappy life has negative moral value.

That latter bit seems to be something that many people not only disagree with, but don't even give proper consideration. Perhaps due to stigma around devaluing of life, so evolutionary bias towards life, or perhaps because their own life is good enough that they find it hard to empathise with those for whom life is an overall negatige experience.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#346

Post by nashashmi »

Freak_NL wrote: post #198
nashashmi wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! People feel like they cannot live alone or they cannot want that someone else be caused hardship (time or money) because of their difficulty. I feel like I will get downvoted to oblivion just because people vehemently disagree, but THIS CANNOT be the meaning and choice behind death. It is simply immature, arrogant, and selfish. But more plainly, it is suicidal / self-relentment.

Who are you to judge whether someone who has lived for over seven decades should go on living or not? If they feel their life is done, have nothing left to live for, and fear degenerating into a husk of their former selves (dementia) stuck inside a broken brain for as long as their body holds out, than why should they hang on? It's arrogant and selfish to force people to live on for as long as doctors can keep their…

> Who are you to judge whether someone who has lived for over seven decades should go on living or not?

When an old man claims this, that is arrogant.

> to force people to live

I don't think anyone can force another to live beyond their ill-fated death.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#347

Post by saulpw »

Salgat wrote: post #291
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

I know it's morbid to discuss but the relief of financial burden on society is also significant. Not only do they die with dignity, but they are giving back to society.

Not to society, but to their loved ones. Whether their children via inheritance or their spouse they didn't bankrupt.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#348

Post by cardanome »

GordonS wrote: post #203
gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

Right, but there's a problem - the UK is in a real mess! Social services, medical services, all the services are underfunded and crumbling. There is a cost of living crisis as wages have barely moved in 15 years, food banks are everywhere, and now "multibanks" are popping up. Our country first needs to ensure that people can choose to live , and if needed be cared for; nobody should feel pushed into assisted dying be…

That is a very good point.

To be fair, that is also the one issue with abortion that is legitimate. I am very pro-choice but also horrified by the reality that women sometimes are pressured to have abortion for economic reasons. Still I think that allowing abortion is a net good even when there is still economic imbalance.

As for euthanasia, I think it is similar. We need to fight for a stable society with good social safety and access to medical services for all while also giving people the rights to decide on how they want to go. (At least for older people, I think for younger people there is too much risk they would have changed their mind and should only be allowed when it is medically certain that they will die soon).

My hope is when cases of euthanasia for economic reasons happen, people will be horrified and it will put pressure into improving the system. But maybe I am naive.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#349

Post by freeone3000 »

patrickhogan1 wrote: post #148

Strange question but how does this affect life insurance? Typically a suicide would not be covered.

CHLIA (the Canadian Health and Life Insurance Association) does not treat MAID as suicide. In addition, most plans cover suicide after two years of coverage regardless.
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