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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

bbc.com

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#101

Post by philistine »

Martinussen wrote: post #71
sramsay64 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would look into countries where euthanasia has been already implemented. That's what puts me off of the idea in the first place. Cases like Christine Gauthier (a former army corporal and paralympian) who was offered euthanasia when trying to seek government disability benefits to install a wheelchair ramp. If it takes someone with existing fame to speak out about this, how many more people has this been pushed on…

I think these are valid concerns, but I would also say that there is an underlying issue with medical malpractice and disregard for the suffering and needs of certain groups of society which we tend to brush under the rug. I'm going to assume the concerns you have probably don't stop at just euthanasia - mine definitely don't, and I worry that a ban just makes the issue more... abstract, and PR-friendly. If an indivi…

> If an individual in a difficult life situation comes to the state for help as a last resort, and there is a chance the representative they are assigned would recommend they should consider just dying as their last resort, the state has already failed

Medical assistance in dying is a medical act, reserved to doctors. Just like a car salesman can't legally recommend you an abortion. No one in the government has the legal right to discuss it, even less offer it.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#102

Post by [deleted] »

bleakenthusiasm wrote: post #39
dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

One reason is religion. That aside, people are afraid that this could be abused. People could choose this purelyto avoid additional cost to their relatives. It could be used as an excuse why more costly options to avoid pain and suffering in old people might not be covered by insurance anymore. People could be talked into it for various reasons. Canada is a good example of a country where I think the base to make it…

[deleted]

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#103

Post by Martinussen »

philistine wrote: post #101
Martinussen wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are valid concerns, but I would also say that there is an underlying issue with medical malpractice and disregard for the suffering and needs of certain groups of society which we tend to brush under the rug. I'm going to assume the concerns you have probably don't stop at just euthanasia - mine definitely don't, and I worry that a ban just makes the issue more... abstract, and PR-friendly. If an indivi…

> If an individual in a difficult life situation comes to the state for help as a last resort, and there is a chance the representative they are assigned would recommend they should consider just dying as their last resort, the state has already failed Medical assistance in dying is a medical act, reserved to doctors. Just like a car salesman can't legally recommend you an abortion. No one in the government has the l…

Yes, my point was that that person having a position where they are able to do that is already wrong. If a car salesman was telling every woman that came in they should get an abortion, there are places that person should be, and none of them are a car dealer's.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#104

Post by bookaway »

tivert wrote: post #85
ben30 wrote: post #13

Fifteen years ago, flying into Vancouver, a local told me charities would give homeless people one-way bus tickets there from colder regions of Canada to prevent winter deaths. No return tickets in spring. Calls into question what we consider "charitable" when the solution is just moving vulnerable people elsewhere. Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care an…

> Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care and treatment? Moving homeless people to warmer cities and offering euthanasia to those who can't afford treatment both avoid fixing the underlying problems. Almost certainly. IIRC, in Canada there have already been cases where people got euthanasia mainly because their disability payments were insufficient.

I'm sure someone will try to frame it as a Catch 22: "If we knew for sure they would choose suicide if they didn't get the help they requested, we would prioritize them over non-suicidal applicants. But the only way we would know if they would actually choose suicide is if they actually committed to voluntary euthanasia".

...

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#105

Post by mistrial9 »

swat535 wrote: post #83
nurettin wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this is true, it appeals to extremes to make a point. People agajnst the motion are against the misuses of assisted suicide due to conditions that may get better in time, or misunderstandings, or conditions of a mental nature which may change or be cured.

That’s part of it, however they are also against it from a morality and ethical point of view, with the central argument being that you can’t take an innocent person’s life, no matter how “good” you think your intentions are. Basically they uphold the value of life above all else, including one’s desire to end it. By the same token, they are against any form of suicide.

citing individual cases is not the road to reason here IMHO. Every single person dies at some point. This is an "entire population" question. Ethics and Morality play an educational, character formation role.. and, a medical decision is not the same as other kinds of decisions.. Another point -- people who are unstable or overwhelmed personally often leap to extreme, graphic and emotional examples first and without context. The original post here fits that description IMHO

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#106

Post by afh1 »

gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

There is no "we". There are people and their bodies and their wishes. And authoritarians who want a say on it. Doesn't matter if nice sounding words like law and democracy are used to describe the tyranny.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#107

Post by kspacewalk2 »

mistrial9 wrote: post #105
swat535 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s part of it, however they are also against it from a morality and ethical point of view, with the central argument being that you can’t take an innocent person’s life, no matter how “good” you think your intentions are. Basically they uphold the value of life above all else, including one’s desire to end it. By the same token, they are against any form of suicide.

citing individual cases is not the road to reason here IMHO. Every single person dies at some point. This is an "entire population" question. Ethics and Morality play an educational, character formation role.. and, a medical decision is not the same as other kinds of decisions.. Another point -- people who are unstable or overwhelmed personally often leap to extreme, graphic and emotional examples first and without c…

This is emphatically not an "entire population" question. This is an individual rights question. I don't know what safeguards exist in other countries to prevent "people who are unstable or overwhelmed personally" from "leaping to the extreme", but in Canada the rules are strict and multiple doctors have to sign off. You can read the MAiD eligibility criteria and the approval process here[0].

[0] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-servi...

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#108

Post by abeppu »

Note: the title should be updated.

The BBC article title now says "Assisted dying" not "euthanasia". Often, the distinction hinges on whether the patient or a medical practitioner administers a substance that brings about death. The Canadian policy actually provides for both, but as I understand it the stats being cited in the article combine both, so only a subset of the tally are "euthanasia" deaths.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#109

Post by kspacewalk2 »

tivert wrote: post #85
ben30 wrote: post #13

Fifteen years ago, flying into Vancouver, a local told me charities would give homeless people one-way bus tickets there from colder regions of Canada to prevent winter deaths. No return tickets in spring. Calls into question what we consider "charitable" when the solution is just moving vulnerable people elsewhere. Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care an…

> Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care and treatment? Moving homeless people to warmer cities and offering euthanasia to those who can't afford treatment both avoid fixing the underlying problems. Almost certainly. IIRC, in Canada there have already been cases where people got euthanasia mainly because their disability payments were insufficient.

[flagged]

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#110

Post by x0x0 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #73
gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

A more important point is that even in a more normal palliative care situation, which previously may have involved a borderline illegal increase of drugs near the end to hasten and ease death, might now be recorded as an assisted death instead. So a more interesting stat might be the expected quality of life adjusted years that have been cut off by the assisted deaths. I'm not sure if QUALY can go negative but some m…

Anyone who's been close to a dying cancer patient knows what the last couple months are like for many: unending suffering plus tomorrow will be worse. Many people would choose not to suffer like that and I can't understand who anyone else is to tell them they must endure utter misery for nothing.
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