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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

bbc.com

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#61

Post by ted_bunny »

amatecha wrote: post #29
snakeyjake wrote: post #26

In an ideal world 100% of all deaths would be by euthanasia. Instead there are accidents, which kill prematurely. Homicides, which steal life. And diseases, which cripple and degrade. I've watched three of my four grandparents suffocate to death as their organs failed, blasted out of their minds on morphine, nothing more than a collection of organs with a slowly stopping metabolism. Two of them wanted to end it, but…

I'd probably prefer to not know, and die in my sleep - surely preferred over the dread of knowing the moment, even if it would be painless/easy. Not sure, my opinion might be different if I'm old and suffering!

The moments before certain death were very relaxing for me. It was easy to identify the things that didn't matter and let go, and to make peace with my pain.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#62

Post by somerandomqaguy »

ben30 wrote: post #13

Fifteen years ago, flying into Vancouver, a local told me charities would give homeless people one-way bus tickets there from colder regions of Canada to prevent winter deaths. No return tickets in spring. Calls into question what we consider "charitable" when the solution is just moving vulnerable people elsewhere. Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care an…

It's charitable. Cold snaps in Prairies can pretty easily hit -35, dropping down to -55 with windchill. You'll get frostbite on exposed skin in 2 minutes at those temperatures.

Most homeless will either take stay in one of the shelters available in the cities, or sneak onto the many freight trains heading towards the cities with milder climates when it starts getting cold. They'll head back when it starts to warm up again. A bus ticket is just enables the journey to be a lot more comfortable.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#63

Post by sramsay64 »

The_Colonel wrote: post #46
rich_sasha wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my mind the main obstacle is kind of orthogonal: how do you protect the people who don't want to go, being pressured or manipulated. I agree that if someone is really, independently and committedly deciding to go, you shouldn't stop them. But how do you express that test in a bureaucratic, legalistic framework? In a friend's family, there was a big rift as one family member in direct line of inheritance was accuse…

> how do you protect the people who don't want to go, being pressured or manipulated. I agree that if someone is really, independently and committedly deciding to go, you shouldn't stop them. But how do you express that test in a bureaucratic, legalistic framework? I would look into countries where euthanasia has been already implemented. It doesn't seem like it's a widespread problem, so apparently they made it work…

> I would look into countries where euthanasia has been already implemented.

That's what puts me off of the idea in the first place. Cases like Christine Gauthier (a former army corporal and paralympian) who was offered euthanasia when trying to seek government disability benefits to install a wheelchair ramp. If it takes someone with existing fame to speak out about this, how many more people has this been pushed on?

> from the utilitarianism view - allowing euthanasia will prevent much more suffering than it will cause.

I'm not totally convinced. I haven't run the numbers, and this also certainly takes into account my personal views on valuing life and family, but I do fear more pain and suffering will come with legal euthanasia than it will solve.

Just look at the end of the article. It gives several examples of the kind of thing that allows me as a utilitarian to say that the suffering of a few terminally ill is not as bad as the harassment of countless vulnerable people.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#64

Post by nurettin »

gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

Even if this is true, it appeals to extremes to make a point. People agajnst the motion are against the misuses of assisted suicide due to conditions that may get better in time, or misunderstandings, or conditions of a mental nature which may change or be cured.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#65

Post by spiderfarmer »

robocat wrote: post #53
spiderfarmer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That's a normal fact of life. The underlying cause is that there is an almost infinite demand for medical costs - well beyond the economic capacity of any country. Unfortunately facts are difficult, and politicians can't fix the facts regardless of how much they tax everybody.

In The Netherlands you can get cancer treatment even if you're homeless. And I don't mind paying extra insurance costs if it means I'm not running into inhumane and desperate go fund me campaigns everywhere I go.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#66

Post by robocat »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #65
robocat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a normal fact of life. The underlying cause is that there is an almost infinite demand for medical costs - well beyond the economic capacity of any country. Unfortunately facts are difficult, and politicians can't fix the facts regardless of how much they tax everybody.

In The Netherlands you can get cancer treatment even if you're homeless. And I don't mind paying extra insurance costs if it means I'm not running into inhumane and desperate go fund me campaigns everywhere I go.

Same in New Zealand.

But our public health system has to use a variety of techniques to limit the total healthcare expenses - such as waiting lists. Drug budgets are restricted which means that many expensive anti-cancer drugs are not available to the public.

Would you be happy to pay 100% of your income in taxes? That is the logical outcome of ever-increasing healthcare and nursing costs. Some wealth tax suggestions here in NZ approach 100% taxation over a lifetime (2% of wealth per year certainly crimps a 4% drawdown on retirement savings).

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#67

Post by somerandomqaguy »

fatbird wrote: post #15
zpeti wrote: post #8

[flagged]

The major cost drivers of Canada's single payer health care system are big-ticket tests and interventions: MRIs, surgery, etc. Palliative care is comparatively cheap, especially since it's often done at home with a visiting nurse coming by to inject morphine. There's no significant savings to be found by killing the terminally ill more quickly. MAID is always a choice by a patient, not an option chosen by the health…

> There's no significant savings to be found by killing the terminally ill more quickly

...Uh...

"Summary table 1 presents the net financial impact of providing MAID in 2021, under the current legislation as set out in bill C-14, which is used as a baseline for the cost estimate. The predicted gross reduction in health care costs amounts to $109.2 million while the cost of administering MAID is estimated at $22.3 million. Thus, the difference between the two represents a net cost reduction for provincial governments of $86.9 million."

-COST ESTIMATE FOR BILL C-7 “MEDICAL ASSISTANCE IN DYING”, 2021, https://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/9.893653/publication.htm...

It's small in the scheme of healthcare budgets, but it's a stretch to call it not significant.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#68

Post by invalidname »

rich_sasha wrote: post #40
dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

To my mind the main obstacle is kind of orthogonal: how do you protect the people who don't want to go, being pressured or manipulated. I agree that if someone is really, independently and committedly deciding to go, you shouldn't stop them. But how do you express that test in a bureaucratic, legalistic framework? In a friend's family, there was a big rift as one family member in direct line of inheritance was accuse…

How do you prevent people from smoking? Eating processed food?

Is the fact that the process of suicide is slower/more conventional a difference?

People seeking this process go through a psychological evaluation to determine if they are under duress and of clear mind. Also there's liability to the ones applying undue pressure which can be criminal.

I think there's a point of personal responsibility. Potential abuse of the system should not be the reason to deny it to everyone. I want to have control over the way I live and die. Alzheimer's is unfortunately in both sides of my family, if it has no treatment and I start showing signs I would rather die than live. It would be torture for me to put my family through that.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#69

Post by briansm »

grecy wrote: post #60

Theses headlines are always sensationalist, because it sounds like these deaths are avoidable. To be clear, all of these people were going to die within days, weeks, or at most a few months. Death is certain. Dignity at the end is the least we can ask for.

'pain-free' and 'organized' perhaps, but don't fool yourself, it's never 'dignified'.

Makes me think of this:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0606035/quotes/?ref_=tt_dyk_qu

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#70

Post by thinkingemote »

rich_sasha wrote: post #40
dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

To my mind the main obstacle is kind of orthogonal: how do you protect the people who don't want to go, being pressured or manipulated. I agree that if someone is really, independently and committedly deciding to go, you shouldn't stop them. But how do you express that test in a bureaucratic, legalistic framework? In a friend's family, there was a big rift as one family member in direct line of inheritance was accuse…

Manipulation and coercion can oppose the suicide too. There's some cases where family members don't want their loved one to kill themselves.

I'm not sure how these were resolved but it's very messy and hugely traumatic for all involved.

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