Firefox removes "do not track" feature support • Hacker News Board

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#81

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #40

elashri wrote: post #16

I understand that many people here have a bad taste of Mozilla's recent actions in many aspects. But the reality here is that this is at worst removing something that almost nobody respected. It was based on honor system and even in Switzerland they do have random inspections for honor system. Browsers never had any enforcement of this feature. And ironically it was used as additional data point of tracking privacy a…

the conversation / system is rigged. how it should have been done in a fair way: 1. assume the user by default does not want to be tracked and make do-not-track opt-out. 2. have it running for a few years and gradually increase the heat on the discussion that nobody respects it. If it would've been done this way it would've been newsworthy and maybe would've been considered as something to enforce via regulation (at…

I have no idea how you expect to make 2 happen. Your plan doesn't sound like it would work either.

I would say this needs to start with a law, more or less.

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#82

Post by PittleyDunkin » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:02 PM UTC

ganzuul wrote: post #77

gkoberger wrote: post #67

I was at Mozilla when this was implemented. It was completely optional for websites to support this. A few did at first. A lot of people internally wanted it to be on-by-default, but the argument was that if it was, nobody would respect it – after all, what tracking platform would willingly only track the 0.1% of people who went into the settings to enable it? (Internet Explorer did eventually enable it by default, w…

There are lots of entities out there that assume consent.

Isn't this the entire point of browsewrapped TOS "agreements"? There's a reason why specifically tracking via cookies had to be singled out by regulation to work at all (putting aside how well or not well this actually works).

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#83

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

registeredcorn wrote: post #44

n144q wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Websites don't just "ignore" DNT, they actively use DNT to improve tracking. From a product perspective, this is an additional option in their settings page that is confusing and marginally useless. I work on creating user facing products as my job, and I 100% support this decision. I'll be honest: nobody is going to stop Firefox because of this, because it does not affect their life in any way or manner.

Per oytis: "An obvious solution would be to turn it on by default" I do agree with your point on people continuing to use Firefox in spite of this. Most people are not invested in the details, or don't care about security/privacy, or can't be bothered to figure out which other browser option is best for their use case. My annoyance is more so on their behalf - that average people will probably be unaware of what secu…

> It irks me, however, that they no longer even have the option.

You can use an extension to set the header if you really want it. I think that's an okay level of difficulty for something so misleading and ineffective.

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#84

Post by rkharsan64 » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:05 PM UTC

dudus wrote: post #80

gkoberger wrote: post #67

I was at Mozilla when this was implemented. It was completely optional for websites to support this. A few did at first. A lot of people internally wanted it to be on-by-default, but the argument was that if it was, nobody would respect it – after all, what tracking platform would willingly only track the 0.1% of people who went into the settings to enable it? (Internet Explorer did eventually enable it by default, w…

I fully agree and have said it for years. Microsoft is the main culprit of DNT failures.

Advertisers are the cause of DNT's failure, not Microsoft.

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#85

Post by shaky-carrousel » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:06 PM UTC

iLoveOncall wrote: post #70

Sephr wrote: post #61

Removing this feature harms user agency. This will result in Firefox users having to deal with more annoying consent prompts. Transcend Consent Management's default configuration opts users out of every unessential tracking purpose (and suppresses automatic consent prompts) whenever DNT is enabled, but only opts users out of "Sale/sharing of info" when only GPC is enabled. Removing this centralized privacy signal mea…

> Removing this feature harms user agency It doesn't, because nobody respects it. It is actually harmful to have a feature that misrepresents its efficiency to users, especially when it comes to privacy and security. Nobody should ever feel that they will not be tracked because they enabled do-not-track, because it's wrong. Removing it is the right thing to do because of this.

That nobody respects is is a false statement. Some do. Also that header permits users to signal sites if they want or not to be tracked, avoiding cookie popups.

Edit: I just saw that Firefox supports GPC, which seems a better alternative to DNT.

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#86

Post by dewey » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:07 PM UTC

Sephr wrote: post #61

Removing this feature harms user agency. This will result in Firefox users having to deal with more annoying consent prompts. Transcend Consent Management's default configuration opts users out of every unessential tracking purpose (and suppresses automatic consent prompts) whenever DNT is enabled, but only opts users out of "Sale/sharing of info" when only GPC is enabled. Removing this centralized privacy signal mea…

That it should exist because one (and there's probably not many) consent managers actually understands and uses this flag is not a strong point in support of that feature.

There's better ways to protect your privacy that don't rely on a best effort voluntary flag that you send to advertisers and hope they accept it.

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#87

Post by firefax » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:09 PM UTC

gkoberger wrote: post #67

I was at Mozilla when this was implemented. It was completely optional for websites to support this. A few did at first. A lot of people internally wanted it to be on-by-default, but the argument was that if it was, nobody would respect it – after all, what tracking platform would willingly only track the 0.1% of people who went into the settings to enable it? (Internet Explorer did eventually enable it by default, w…

>I think it implies that it did way more than it did, so it was just a faux feeling of security.

Flipping that bit increased your browser fingerprint a smidge, ironically :-)

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#88

Post by bluGill » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:09 PM UTC

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #82

ganzuul wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of entities out there that assume consent.

Isn't this the entire point of browsewrapped TOS "agreements"? There's a reason why specifically tracking via cookies had to be singled out by regulation to work at all (putting aside how well or not well this actually works).

Since you don't have a realistic alternative should those hold up?

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#89

Post by bluGill » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:11 PM UTC

shaky-carrousel wrote: post #85

iLoveOncall wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing this feature harms user agency It doesn't, because nobody respects it. It is actually harmful to have a feature that misrepresents its efficiency to users, especially when it comes to privacy and security. Nobody should ever feel that they will not be tracked because they enabled do-not-track, because it's wrong. Removing it is the right thing to do because of this.

That nobody respects is is a false statement. Some do. Also that header permits users to signal sites if they want or not to be tracked, avoiding cookie popups. Edit: I just saw that Firefox supports GPC, which seems a better alternative to DNT.

But others use it as a signal. You are easier to track by the dishonerable with it. Meanwhile the honerable were probably not tracking as much [no way to tell but a reasonable guess]

Re: Firefox removes "do not track" feature support

#90

Post by Sephr » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 6:12 PM UTC

dewey wrote: post #86

Sephr wrote: post #61

Removing this feature harms user agency. This will result in Firefox users having to deal with more annoying consent prompts. Transcend Consent Management's default configuration opts users out of every unessential tracking purpose (and suppresses automatic consent prompts) whenever DNT is enabled, but only opts users out of "Sale/sharing of info" when only GPC is enabled. Removing this centralized privacy signal mea…

That it should exist because one (and there's probably not many) consent managers actually understands and uses this flag is not a strong point in support of that feature. There's better ways to protect your privacy that don't rely on a best effort voluntary flag that you send to advertisers and hope they accept it.

Agreed that users need more baseline protections.

Separately, privacy signals are being required by law in some regions. If we're going to have browser level privacy signals in the first place, we might as well support and use them as intended.