Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

lumafield.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 206 posts

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#141

Post by Blackthorn »

miunau wrote: post #98
jasode wrote: post #87

>, I have an altendorf handguard sliding table saw, which will stop as fast as the sawstop, The alternative approaches from other industrial saw manufacturers that are "non-contact non-destructive" are interesting: - cameras and machine learning used by Altendorf "Hand Guard": https://www.altendorfgroup.com/en-us/machines/altendorf-hand... - inductive proximity (same science as Theremin[1]) used by Felder "PCS Preven…

I'm not sure how comparable these alternatives are when two of them are "request a quote" kind of pricing, and the Altendorf is $7000+, unless you're considering an entire cabinet. None of them will go on a job site with you, for example. I would love to test the Felder system though.

Yeah, they aren't comparable in the least. These companies use it for market segmentation. You'll only get this on the ridiculously expensive table saws. Whereas a Sawstop cabinet saw (the industrial one!), still expensive for an American-style table saw, is a fraction of the price. In the case of Felder, 10% the price!

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#142

Post by Blackthorn »

Freak_NL wrote: post #83

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

Lot of replies here but none of them have really hit the mark. European table saws are fundamentally different than American table saws, where the entire section left of the blade slides forward. Culturally it seems Europeans believe this is "safer" than the American style and therefore they don't need the blade safety mechanism. Personally I think that's nonsense, and apparently so do some of the companies because they've developed their own mechanism that they only use on their priciest saws.

Woodworking YouTube has changed this a bit. Since American creators are so widespread, everyone has gotten exposed to SawStop and I know at least a couple years back people were trying to import American-style table saws instead of the local European-style because that's what YTers have. I don't know if it was regulatory or what that has prevented the former from being more available in Europe.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#143

Post by Hilift »

jchw wrote: post #22

I would be glad to see better table saw safety mechanisms, though I'm skeptical that 1. This will actually happen 2. That patent is the only one that will wind up mattering. I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks when it comes to warning labels, for liability reasons. As an example, many appliances will warn that you…

> I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks when it comes to warning labels

Chainsaws have about the same number of annual ER visits as table saws. It's common to see someone using a chainsaw without most of the recommended safety gear. In those cases, it's probably money.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#144

Post by Blackthorn »

moooo99 wrote: post #85
Freak_NL wrote: post #83

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required. In 2015 Bosch introduced a system that did essentially the same thing as SawStop, but with a slightly different mechanism. SawStop sued in the US and won against Bosch. Since 2017 SawStop is part of Festool, which explains why their tech is…

> Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required.

I think it's more regulatory. There are regulations in the EU around things like blade stop time that products designed for the USA do not meet.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#145

Post by sowbug »

bobsyourbuncle wrote: post #131
michaelt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Why are circular saws less prone to injury?

On a circular saw, the hand in motion maneuvers the cutting tool. On a table saw, it pushes the thing being cut. Either saw's blade sometimes grabs the material and kicks it back. If your hand is on that material, it can also be sent in an unexpected direction.

(This is just one scenario. Both tools are capable of unwanted removal of body parts.)

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#146

Post by rtkwe »

Blackthorn wrote: post #142
Freak_NL wrote: post #83

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

Lot of replies here but none of them have really hit the mark. European table saws are fundamentally different than American table saws, where the entire section left of the blade slides forward. Culturally it seems Europeans believe this is "safer" than the American style and therefore they don't need the blade safety mechanism. Personally I think that's nonsense, and apparently so do some of the companies because t…

Interesting seems like the European version is essentially an integral sled? That does seem much safer and inherently keeps hands away from the blade when used properly so a saw stop mechanism might not actually add a huge amount of safety real safety but is still a nice final safety measure. A lot of US literature and videos I've seen are heavily suggests using a sled whenever practical.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#147

Post by mikey_p »

hyperbovine wrote: post #125
ejs wrote: post #90

I love my sawstop, it's a great machine. Often times when a product has some patent-protected feature, the product itself is substandard, but I have not found that case with sawstop. It's one of my highest quality tools. It would be nice if the mechanism wasn't so destructive. I accidentally had an aluminum fence just a fraction of a mm too close, and it touched the blade. I was using a dado stack, and it did a numbe…

I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where dadoing <1mm from the fence was a good idea in the first place. I'm assuming you're talking about a miter/crosscut fence but still...

Could be an aluminum extrusion or something in a miter gauge or cross-cut sled.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#148

Post by mikey_p »

Freak_NL wrote: post #83

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

I believe they just don't market them there, probably not interested in confirming to all the different regulations for different markets, etc. I know some folks have imported them, but I don't think they are sold directly. I think Laura Kampf claims to have one of the first SawStops in Europe.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#149

Post by mikey_p »

jdprgm wrote: post #23

Off topic but I wonder how broadly the idea of very expensive failure scenarios but human damage is avoided could be applied to industry at large...

An example might be railroads putting a derailer at the bottom of a hill to protect industry or businesses. The derailer is removed when servicing the line, but put back to protect the end of the line industry from run-away cars. Conclusion: they'd rather have run-away cars de-rail and have to recover them, then letting them damage a factory or business.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#150

Post by f1shy »

Blackthorn wrote: post #142
Freak_NL wrote: post #83

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

Lot of replies here but none of them have really hit the mark. European table saws are fundamentally different than American table saws, where the entire section left of the blade slides forward. Culturally it seems Europeans believe this is "safer" than the American style and therefore they don't need the blade safety mechanism. Personally I think that's nonsense, and apparently so do some of the companies because t…

Also dados are prohibited (more or less) in the EU. So yes, there are regulatory issues. And btw, I just cannot find a sawstop to buy here (at a human price)
Post reply on HN