Live data from Hacker News

Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

cnn.com

261–270 of 367 posts

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#261

I feel like it's been a long time fretting over falling birth rates and this is the first time I've seen anyone float the idea that making life better for people might make them a bit more inclined to make more people.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

The government does already give significant subsidies to parents. Direct tax credits and public schooling (aka free childcare) are two big ones. I’m not arguing that parents come out ahead economically or that the subsidies are bad (many argue they should be higher). Just pointing it out, if it helps with the guilt about your taxes.

If we want to get all utilitarian about it, these things might be the most important:

1) Identifying the kids with the highest potential to contribute the most to society, and giving whatever support it takes.

2) Identifying which kids and parents are the most needy, who will benefit the most from support that enables them to have a good life. It’s probably not the average family in a developed country.

If there’s someone who wants to raise my taxes to pay for that stuff, I’ll vote for them.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#263

I feel like it's been a long time fretting over falling birth rates and this is the first time I've seen anyone float the idea that making life better for people might make them a bit more inclined to make more people.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

If you survey couples people say it's the money. There's no need to invent a whole narrative. People just say it's money (and stuff downstream of money like not being able to afford bigger housing to have a second kid rather than just one)

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree philosophically, there was no "them" to consent prior to them existing, so no one was forced. I think this is gesturing at Benatar's antinatalist argument but as you'll recall it rests on a metaphysical asymmetry here I have just never found convincing. Appreciate you keeping the pushback civil, however.

True, no one is asked whether or not they would like to be born and then forced into it after disagreeing, but once they are brought into existence they will experience suffering in life, does anyone ever desire such suffering for themselves? Seems to me that parents should want to minimize that suffering, even if I also disagree with “owing them everything” as parents should also help them to grow into self-sufficie…

Ceteris paribus everyone wants to minimize the suffering of another. All the more when it's your own child. That's very different from having a moral obligation towards them to minimize their suffering, which is the thrust of my original post.

The thing is the vast majority of people find living to be on the whole a source of great joy, far greater than any suffering they may experience as a byproduct of it. The handful who don't do have the option, grim as it may be to consider, of returning to nonexistence. The fact that this option isn't taken by even 1% of people suggests strongly that nonexistence just isn't that compelling an alternative.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree philosophically, there was no "them" to consent prior to them existing, so no one was forced. I think this is gesturing at Benatar's antinatalist argument but as you'll recall it rests on a metaphysical asymmetry here I have just never found convincing. Appreciate you keeping the pushback civil, however.

> Disagree philosophically, there was no "them" to consent prior to them existing, so no one was forced. The point is that the obligation flows one way because one party was inserted into it without their consent. Does their lack of preexistence impact that equation in a meaningful way?

>Does their lack of preexistence impact that equation in a meaningful way?

Yes. Obviously.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

> You don't owe [...] you might want to What's the difference? If you don't boost them with all your might, you effectively condemn them to a life of struggle and misery, in today's world. Knowing this, it's gonna be you forcing yourself to give them your all, not society's expectations.

>If you don't boost them with all your night, ... Life of struggle and misery, in today's world.

That's not my experience of the world at all. Quite the opposite, in fact: I had a pretty good time when I was coasting by on minimum effort, and I'm having an even better time now that I'm putting in some mild amount of effort.

I have no reason to suspect this will change in the next generation. If anything the falling costs of goods and services everywhere suggests they'll get an even easier ticket.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed the DINK life for some time but eventually we decided to start a family and my only regret in life is we didn't start it sooner and have more kids. In the end all the fancy restaurants, nights out, fancy vacations with first class airfare, etc were nice in some ways but pretty vapid and unimportant when looking back. I won't value those years very much compared to the years with children in the house. The e…

I think that any loving, financial well couple would discover the same, but all I hear from younger people is excuses as to why kids are a burden. It drives me a bit crazy.

Some disincentives to have kids, if you grew up in the 21st century:

- The cost (financial, time, stress/health) is incredibly high. When cost of living as one person increases somewhere between notably and substantially faster than wages, it’s hard to justify paying for another person while likely also taking an income cut. You end up with entire classes of people whose careers will struggle to pay for their own life, let alone that of a kid. This is playing out in real time - I personally know people who commute 30-45 minutes by car to make $23/hour (in Canada, in a moderately high CoL city - that’s $16USD). When I was in university, some of my classmates who worked at the Starbucks near campus had coworkers (there were at least two instances of this that I know of) in their 40s with kids who commuted over an hour to make however much money Starbucks managers make, and one had a second job on weekends. It’s not hard to look at that and think, “how is that something you’d want to do to yourself?” - The feeling (perceived or real) that the world is becoming a worse place. 24 hour news and social media don’t help, with either the perception or the actual situation. Why would I want to raise a kid who could be a victim of one of the weekly school shootings? Or who’s going to be left dealing with an even harder life financially/etc? Or who’s going to resent older generations for selfishly wasting the earth’s resources?

It’s generally quite easy when you work in tech with a partner who works in tech to just assume that having kids is an easy choice (I work with people who are like that, who apparently only see the world through rose-tinted glasses, and are shocked someone could even possibly not want to pop out as many babies as possible). But when you look at the level of struggle a significant portion of the population endures, as they become generally more educated and more capable of critical thinking over time, it’s pretty clear why large swaths of people will start thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have kids just for the sake of having kids, especially if we don’t actually want to.”

That’s ignoring of course the general overpopulation and lack of sustainability of the western lifestyle (and the associated impact of having a kid on climate change - pretty much the single worst thing you could do, if you can about that at all). People who are tuned in to those sorts of issues are also more likely to not want kids, either because they don’t want to contribute to the problem, or raise kids who will have to deal with the fallout.

If you’re driven crazy by people having a different viewpoint from your own, you may want to consider reflecting on why you are so deeply entrenched in your beliefs. It is rarely productive.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#269

I feel like it's been a long time fretting over falling birth rates and this is the first time I've seen anyone float the idea that making life better for people might make them a bit more inclined to make more people.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

> It's actually that life is too good for childless people

I'm not going to idly sit by and let people who have children take my hard earned money from me. If you think increasing taxes on those without children won't cause a massive retaliation by the men who are not able to find female mates to have children with, you are in for a massive surprise.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#270
We're firmly in the "4 days but no change to pay" honeymoon phase.

Do people really think new 4 day roles, if it becomes the norm, will be budgeted same as 5 days? No chance. Have you ever met the upper class types who run the majority of companies...

This is partial redundancy for everyone whitewashed as caring for your employees. It's just not apparent yet

And compressed hours? Employees and employers just lying to themselves as it enables what both sides want

Post reply on HN