Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#181

Post by jefbyokyie » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:57 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #116

encoderer wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating. Is the loyalty reciprocated?

It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.

Yes, but it matters how much it intrudes on your personal life.

Paying social security (and saving for retirement) when you are young, and getting (some) coverage when you are old, is one thing. It's "only" money.

Having your time, availability, emotional capacity, mental health sucked dry by the elderly in your own family is an entirely different thing. Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources; young and middle-aged Japanese are entirely reasonable not to start families.

I recommend reading this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_chal...

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#182

Post by hiAndrewQuinn » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:58 PM UTC

a1exyz wrote: post #167

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

I agree and think that this is a huge growing cultural expectation - "you have to live for your children". I don't think it used to be the case. Well OK sure I get that that would be good for kids but you're also gonna limit the number of parents if that's the new normal.

It might be mildly good for kids on net, I actually don't really have a lot of confidence around that claim - kids are quite good at keeping themselves entertained. I have high confidence around the claim that it is moderately bad for parents, and so my sympathies lie quite strongly with reducing the workload on them.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#183

Post by makeitdouble » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:58 PM UTC

chachacharge wrote: post #50

7thaccount wrote: post #2

That sounds....huge. I know many working couples where one would probably take that in a heartbeat. You lose some money, but gain more family time and sanity. Having Friday to finish chores and being able to enjoy the weekend unstressed is huge, not to mention clocking out early each day to be able to pick up your kid and not have to get back to work or whatever.

I kind of doubt this will be adopted practically in Japan. The old people get time off and leave work early in Japan by privilege and the young break themselves and any rule they need to permit it. The young would even lie about taking time off to make the boss look good, even taking less pay to sell the lie. Who can have kids when you already have to change everyone's diaper.

That was largely true 10 to 20 years ago and is still true in some pockets of society.

The younger have been giving the middle finger to these kind of companies for a while now. Either literally, by proxy, or going elsewhere and/or quit the whole corporate culture altogether and doing "shit" jobs with more flexibility instead (they feel screwed either way, at least they'll do it on their own term)

This 4 days week measure has a realistic chance IMHO, otherwise these gov job will stay the bottom of the barrel in the new generation's perception.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#184

Post by orangecat » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:59 PM UTC

a1exyz wrote: post #167

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

I agree and think that this is a huge growing cultural expectation - "you have to live for your children". I don't think it used to be the case. Well OK sure I get that that would be good for kids but you're also gonna limit the number of parents if that's the new normal.

Well OK sure I get that that would be good for kids

And past a certain point it's not.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#185

Post by joemazerino » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:59 PM UTC

Government employees need to work more, not less.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#186

Post by mckn1ght » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 11:03 PM UTC

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #177

halgir wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, from a moral standpoint you owe your children everything. You forced them into existence without their consent. Though I agree that doesn't have to mean conforming to societal expectations of ivy league schools and so forth. Food, love and a roof over your head goes a long way.

Disagree philosophically, there was no "them" to consent prior to them existing, so no one was forced. I think this is gesturing at Benatar's antinatalist argument but as you'll recall it rests on a metaphysical asymmetry here I have just never found convincing. Appreciate you keeping the pushback civil, however.

True, no one is asked whether or not they would like to be born and then forced into it after disagreeing, but once they are brought into existence they will experience suffering in life, does anyone ever desire such suffering for themselves?

Seems to me that parents should want to minimize that suffering, even if I also disagree with “owing them everything” as parents should also help them to grow into self-sufficient beings. It’s a tough balance to strike and I won’t pretend to be an expert on it, I’m only just getting started myself.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#187

Post by jefbyokyie » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 11:03 PM UTC

jajko wrote: post #26

7thaccount wrote: post #2

That sounds....huge. I know many working couples where one would probably take that in a heartbeat. You lose some money, but gain more family time and sanity. Having Friday to finish chores and being able to enjoy the weekend unstressed is huge, not to mention clocking out early each day to be able to pick up your kid and not have to get back to work or whatever.

Not sure about rest of the world, but here in Switzerland mothers often take Wednesdays off - first years of school its not on Wednesdays, and then it starts with just mornings. Wife has it and she repeatedly claimed that she will never go back to 5 days workweek. Most employers, be it private or state ones have 0 issues with this setup. 20% less, maybe 15% net income less ain't that huge of a deal - if it is, someth…

> 20% less, maybe 15% net income less ain't that huge of a deal - if it is, something ain't right in your finances anyway

or else, something maybe horribly broken in your country.

I'm happy for you, that you can easily dismiss 15% net income. Try that in Hungary, where generally two full time jobs together are nearly insufficient just to stay afloat.

> One needs to be happy or at least content with its own life to make others happy too, and thats not achievable easily in rat races

Very true, which is why mental health issues are rampant in the Eastern Bloc.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#188

Post by layer8 » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 11:04 PM UTC

halgir wrote: post #168

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

On the contrary, from a moral standpoint you owe your children everything. You forced them into existence without their consent. Though I agree that doesn't have to mean conforming to societal expectations of ivy league schools and so forth. Food, love and a roof over your head goes a long way.

If every generation is expected to sacrifice themselves for the next, it kind of begs the question of what is the point of it all. Having some reciprocal balance makes more sense to me.

One can also turn around your moral argument: Your children owe you everything, since they wouldn’t exist at all without you.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#189

Post by jefbyokyie » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 11:09 PM UTC

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

orangecat wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

> You don't owe [...] you might want to

What's the difference? If you don't boost them with all your might, you effectively condemn them to a life of struggle and misery, in today's world. Knowing this, it's gonna be you forcing yourself to give them your all, not society's expectations.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#190

Post by makeitdouble » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 11:12 PM UTC

lordleft wrote: post #43

I think this is an overall good move, and very much support it, but many countries with better work-life balance and robust support for new parents still see declining birth rates....I can't help but think that a decline in fertility rates is as much about values -- what the point of life itself is, and how much it should be bound up in what we call the family -- as it is about the material conditions surrounding the…

We'd totally be OK with "mistakenly" improving work/like balance and then earnestly try to find other solutions to the birth rate problem.

Otherwise I don't think there's a single unique solution. No having a miserable life is probably a good firth step that enables more advanced and varied measures.