Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#181

Post by vel0city » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 3:36 AM UTC

nimish wrote: post #155

ggreer wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to distinguish Tesla from other companies. The others haven't figured out how to make chargers cheaply yet, so they're forced to ask for subsidies. That's why Tesla's bids on that Texas contract were so much lower than the competition. Tesla mass produces their charging stations in factories. Entire stations are assembled from modular units, mounted on a concrete slab, and shipped to the installation s…

The others don't _want_ to make chargers. They don't or want to know how. Charging infrastructure is a public good so it ought to be the government's job to incentivize it, but Tesla's supercharger network works just as well.

Personally, I don't want my car company to also be the company I buy the fuel from. I'd want a marketplace of people competing to sell me fuel.

I don't want to only be able to fuel my Hyundai at Hyundai-affiliated gas stations. And it'd be bullshit if I couldn't get gas from the Ford station because I'm in a Hyundai.

I get Tesla needed to jumpstart the industry, but if its going to actually work the charging industry needs to stand on its own and not rely on the automakers making their own networks.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#182

Post by vel0city » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 3:40 AM UTC

MrHamburger wrote: post #109

ggreer wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...

After my fair share of car being incompatible with basic CCS (Connector fits, car tells me it does not like the electricity here) I just want the charging to be working without some fancy features which charger manufacturers are going to implement wrong anyway.

I'd really like to know which cars and which networks have been the issues you've experienced.

I've seen people in BMW's and VW's pull up to an EA charger, try getting it to charge a few times, and have it fail every time. Then I see a Hyundai or a Ford pull up, and it works without issue.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#183

Post by vel0city » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 3:43 AM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #143

ggreer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before the ISO standard existed, Tesla had their own implementation of plug and charge. They've since added support for ISO 15118, allowing non-Teslas to charge at supercharging stations without using the Tesla app.[1] The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the T…

Thank you! That's pretty cool. The proposed changes actually will fix this glaring omission: > Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own p…

FWIW, if the manufacturer does it right, it could theoretically do the sync once with your car and have it authenticate with a lot of different networks that participate in that same partnership. Otherwise, it'll just be a one-time setup the first time you charge.

For example, Ford has this "Blue Oval" network concept, so any charger network that is a part of that would trust that without necessarily needing me to associate my individual car identity.

Honestly though I'm kind of a fan of just having a credit card reader on the dispenser. Its way easier if I want to choose a different payment method for a particular charge, and honestly it is not that much additional work to plug in, tap a credit card or phone, and then it starts charging. Its adding like 10-30 seconds to a 10min+ transaction.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#184

Post by vel0city » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 3:54 AM UTC

Kirby64 wrote: post #79

kccqzy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expensive power electronics you speak of are not part of the dispenser. The dispenser is really just a very fancy switch. It performs some payment authorization and then switches on those expensive power electronics. If you look at a modern Electrify America unit, the dispenser is an extremely slim panel with a screen. It clearly isn't big enough to contain these power electronics. Now transformer isn't a great n…

I’m not confused here, to be clear. There is a giant transformer that converts from mid voltage AC to low voltage AC at most installations. Because they draw so much power they need their own dedicated transformers. There’s sometimes (depending on the installation) a separate cabinet to convert the AC to DC and then transfers it to dispensers, though, as you say. The more modern high power ones tend to use separate c…

Those older ones were just normal step-down transformers. In Europe that would often be three-phase, in the US it would normally be two-phase (J-1772 is only two-phase compatible). In that world, the "charger" (EVSE) was just a smart relay which would tell the car how much power the circuit would handle, but the actual charger was a thing in the car. That's commonly called Level 2 charging.

What is commonly talked about here are DC fast chargers, where the actual "charger" is an AC to DC cabinet on-site. Those chargers could be connected to one or many dispensers. The dispensers are the things with the cables that plug into the car, handle payment negotiation, and relay battery state to the charger in the cabinet. You could have multiple dispensers to chargers in this setup.

The technical English parlance here would be EVSE for the Level 2 chargers (the smart relay things), and dispensers for the pedestals with the cables for DC fast chargers (DCFCs).

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#185

Post by Kirby64 » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 3:59 AM UTC

vel0city wrote: post #184

Kirby64 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not confused here, to be clear. There is a giant transformer that converts from mid voltage AC to low voltage AC at most installations. Because they draw so much power they need their own dedicated transformers. There’s sometimes (depending on the installation) a separate cabinet to convert the AC to DC and then transfers it to dispensers, though, as you say. The more modern high power ones tend to use separate c…

Those older ones were just normal step-down transformers. In Europe that would often be three-phase, in the US it would normally be two-phase (J-1772 is only two-phase compatible). In that world, the "charger" (EVSE) was just a smart relay which would tell the car how much power the circuit would handle, but the actual charger was a thing in the car. That's commonly called Level 2 charging. What is commonly talked ab…

Again, not confused here. I’m talking about older stuff like the 50kW CCS/chademo systems. There’s no “older” with standard level 2 charging. Level 2 charging coexists with level 3 and will continue to coexist.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#186

Post by wonder_er » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:12 AM UTC

bonkers that EVs are known to depend on child labor/slave labor in the DRC to the order of 2kg/5lbs of cobalt PER EV, and people think it's cool to drive them around.

When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc.

some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade and slavery still is created and sustained by the EV industry. I could never.

I propose that you consider adding a >125cc scooter to your mobility toolkit. It's a convivial vehicle class.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#187

Post by richiebful1 » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:14 AM UTC

burnerthrow008 wrote: post #176

PaulWaldman wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.

How many broken gas stations could you build if the government gave grants for building gas stations, but not for keeping them running?

The Federal US subsidy for EV chargers require 97% uptime across the year

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#188

Post by virgildotcodes » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:17 AM UTC

wonder_er wrote: post #186

bonkers that EVs are known to depend on child labor/slave labor in the DRC to the order of 2kg/5lbs of cobalt PER EV, and people think it's cool to drive them around. When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc. some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade…

Bonkers that the climate change fueled by fossil fuels is leading to children starving to death due to changing weather patterns, more extreme droughts, and my god how many children and adults will live and die in agony as it really kicks in and global mass migrations for survival truly develop, I could never.

This was written as someone that drives a gas powered car. Your comment reads like a meme being seeded on the internet by oil companies to muddy support for a transition away from fossil fuels.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#189

Post by stephenr » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:19 AM UTC

wonder_er wrote: post #186

bonkers that EVs are known to depend on child labor/slave labor in the DRC to the order of 2kg/5lbs of cobalt PER EV, and people think it's cool to drive them around. When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc. some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade…

I don't drive an EV but devils advocate is pretty easy here:

Bonkers that ICE's are known to contribute to climate change globally and cause air quality issues at a local level, and people think it's cool to drive them around.

You're broken hearted for your hypothetical 3 year old in a hypothetical mine, but you don't see a problem with the same hypothetical 3 year old growing up in a world without clean air, with increasingly extreme weather events?

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#190

Post by cyberax » Sat, Dec 07, 2024, 4:25 AM UTC

vel0city wrote: post #183

cyberax wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! That's pretty cool. The proposed changes actually will fix this glaring omission: > Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own p…

FWIW, if the manufacturer does it right, it could theoretically do the sync once with your car and have it authenticate with a lot of different networks that participate in that same partnership. Otherwise, it'll just be a one-time setup the first time you charge. For example, Ford has this "Blue Oval" network concept, so any charger network that is a part of that would trust that without necessarily needing me to as…

Oh, for sure. There's a lot of possible workflows. E.g. a car can present the provider's login screen on the dashboard.

> Its way easier if I want to choose a different payment method for a particular charge, and honestly it is not that much additional work to plug in, tap a credit card or phone, and then it starts charging. Its adding like 10-30 seconds to a 10min+ transaction.

Credit card readers are a PITA, and they need connectivity. More importantly, the ISO 15118 protocol can be used with wireless charging! Imagine just parking at a designated spot, clicking "confirm" on the car dash, and walking away. The car can even align itself with the charging coils.