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Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

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Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#141

Post by peutetre »

cogman10 wrote: post #95
fredsmith219 wrote: post #93

The have a charger very near to where I go in Michigan, and 30 miles from the nearest supercharger. They announced earlier this year that they would open up the RAN “near the end of the year” so I’ve been waiting for this announcement. The fact that they will only gradually modify existing chargers to work with other vehicles is a disappointment. It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. I am really lookin…

> It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. Nope. CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more…

> Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V.

The CCS spec supports up to 1000 volts. All chargers support variable voltages.

A car's pack voltage also changes continuously across the charge curve as the battery's state of charge increases. The pack is at its lowest voltage at 0% state of charge and at its highest at 100%.

Here's an example of four cars charging, three at 400 volts and one at 800 volts. You can see how the voltage and amperage change across the charge curve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#142

Post by greenthrow »

cogman10 wrote: post #95
fredsmith219 wrote: post #93

The have a charger very near to where I go in Michigan, and 30 miles from the nearest supercharger. They announced earlier this year that they would open up the RAN “near the end of the year” so I’ve been waiting for this announcement. The fact that they will only gradually modify existing chargers to work with other vehicles is a disappointment. It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. I am really lookin…

> It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. Nope. CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more…

Sorry to be pedantic but there are cars on the road where the voltages go below even 300 and the Lucid Air Grand Touring is over 900 when it gets near full. So chargers actually need to be able to handle more like 200-1000.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#143

Post by cyberax »

ggreer wrote: post #111
cyberax wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't use the ISO standard for plug&charge, they have their own custom implementation.

Before the ISO standard existed, Tesla had their own implementation of plug and charge. They've since added support for ISO 15118, allowing non-Teslas to charge at supercharging stations without using the Tesla app.[1] The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the T…

Thank you! That's pretty cool. The proposed changes actually will fix this glaring omission:

> Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region

And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own private key (presumably in some hardware-hardened storage), and the charging network can just associate the payment details with the public key of the car.

The provider can use the receipts as a proof that the car has indeed used the charging equipment. And the receipts are sent periodically during the charging process, so the charger can terminate the session if there's a discrepancy between the station's and the car's accounting.

Nice and neat.

Edit: and this also can easily work offline. The networks can just sync the list of approved public keys to chargers with the corresponding credit balances. It'll require account setup with each network, but if you have to do it once, it's not _too_ bad.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#145

Post by VectorLock »

zdragnar wrote: post #27
VectorLock wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. >A gas pump costs about $25k installed. These numbers seem skewed to me. I think you're quoting prices for gas pumps with just the pump, not any storage infrastructure like underground tanks, stores, employees. Then you're quoting the cost high speed chargers without any kind of electrical infrastructure to support them, which would be expensive, but more analogous to i…

Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps. The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.

Tanks are cheap. Land for them, and digging, are not.

Employees are needed because most places require gas stations to be manned. Unless you're talking Bucee's they're not making much from selling a few drinks, they're just making marginal use of the building.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#146

Post by peutetre »

ggreer wrote: post #64
menthe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take this to daddy Elon - this has absolutely nothing to do with Rivian.

Rivian placed their charging port on the front left corner, while Teslas have ports on the rear left corner. So to charge a Rivian at a Tesla Supercharger, you have to park in the adjacent spot and plug in.[1] More Supercharging stations are adding "trailer compatible" spots, so this should become less of an issue over time. I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas…

> I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas vehicles have

No need. Just make the cables longer and the problem is solved. Even Tesla has put longer cables on their V4 chargers.

Here's a long cable on some EnBW Alpitronic chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2shbCwDYM

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#147

Post by zrobotics »

bobthepanda wrote: post #119
jonny_eh wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the lost income is marginal. The risk for Tesla/Rivian, or even a gas station, is more existential.

Yeah, the forging of EA from the Dieselgate money probably has a lot to do with why they don’t feel the heat on unreliable chargers. I suppose it would be different if chargers were run by electric utilities or were there to goose the sales of convenience stores.

I wasn't aware that EA was owned by VW, I thought it was a separate business. Suddenly all the complaints from friends with EVs make tons more sense.

From wikipedia: (Electrify America) is a subsidiary of Volkswagen Group of America, established in late 2016 by the automaker as part of its efforts to offset emissions in the wake of the Volkswagen emissions scandal. Volkswagen, as part of its settlement following the "Dieselgate" emissions scandal, invested $2 billion in creating Electrify America.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrify_America

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#148

Post by dylan604 »

bobthepanda wrote: post #121
ipdashc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations. As the other commenter said, AFAIK, the majority of a gas station's income comes from the convenience store, no? Profit margins on gas are really low - Google says it's around 2%.

I imagine there are additional factors. * many prime charging station locations are where the gas stations currently are. The high installation costs and long charging times mean you’d lose money swapping them 1:1 right now, and most gas stations are already optimized to hold the max pumps per spot of land. * it is challenging to find new locations not least because cities have found out that gas stations are pretty…

The cons of a gas station in the neighborhood are when it's a convenient store with pumps. The sale of lotto, beer, smokes, and low cost food attract it's own crowd that the NIMBYs do not like. Switch that to a storeless unmanned set of pumps, and all of that goes away. I've seen a few of these types of locations around town. Just an awning with a few pumps under it. That's pretty much what all of the electric charge locations look like. Just "rent" spots at existing places on the highway with parking nearest the main road (which is typically the least desired spots in the lot). Pretty much any hotel would be a good candidate.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#149

Post by floxy »

tirant wrote: post #86
78adad2323 wrote: post #63

Has anyone does a trade-in value for these EVs? The depreciation of these EV vehicles are crazy...

The real deal today is to buy an EV second hand, not to sell it. There’s still so much fear on how long the battery will hold up, however all statistics are pointing at > 80% capacity for 10 years old / 200,000 miles. Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh, which will be around $3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery.

>Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh

...is that for refurbished packs? Source?

>$3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery.

...anyone know how much labor is involved in swapping out a Tesla battery pack?

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#150

Post by insane_dreamer »

m463 wrote: post #104
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #32

Their strategy was to build them where there weren't other dcfc chargers, opening up new areas especially around outdoors places. Their chargers are much better maintained in general than the infamous Electrify America (they really struggle to fix EA chargers when they have problems, and they have problems) - there's a long story behind this. Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so…

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

> Meanwhile I kind of suspect 3rd party charging systems are probably like 3rd-party public telephones or atms -- a rent-seeking opportunity from someone who will not shell out for quick detection and fixing of broken chargers.

This only makes sense if supply of chargers outstrips demand; otherwise, they're leaving money on the table by not fixing them.

I wonder what's the financial arrangements between the charging system owners and the owners of the parking lots where they're installed.

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