Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

thedrive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 292 posts

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#121

Post by bobthepanda »

ipdashc wrote: post #108
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not…

> There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations. As the other commenter said, AFAIK, the majority of a gas station's income comes from the convenience store, no? Profit margins on gas are really low - Google says it's around 2%.

I imagine there are additional factors.

* many prime charging station locations are where the gas stations currently are. The high installation costs and long charging times mean you’d lose money swapping them 1:1 right now, and most gas stations are already optimized to hold the max pumps per spot of land.

* it is challenging to find new locations not least because cities have found out that gas stations are pretty problematic uses of land when it comes to neighborhood desirability, traffic, etc. so many are loth to approve new charging locations.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#122

Post by _ea1k »

PaulWaldman wrote: post #107
m463 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

> I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.

That's true, but there's also another weird counteracting effect. Lets say you have 4 chargers offering a full 350 kw each. If they get used at full power for ~15 minutes in the month, the demand charge for the month might be ~$10k (probably will be higher, tbh). This will be true even if the stations themselves see ~15% utilization.

But break two of them? Yeah, there might be an occasional line, but your fee drops to $5k and you still produce the same revenue. TBH, some of these stations likely have better ROI when a stall or two are broken.

High utilization sites are completely different, of course.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#123

Post by peutetre »

xnx wrote: post #28
Suppafly wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in what sense do they misuse them?

They take up 2 spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...

That's a straightforward failure of charger design. Tesla's cables are too short.

The V4 chargers have longer cables and solve the problem.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#124

Post by _ea1k »

cogman10 wrote: post #95
fredsmith219 wrote: post #93

The have a charger very near to where I go in Michigan, and 30 miles from the nearest supercharger. They announced earlier this year that they would open up the RAN “near the end of the year” so I’ve been waiting for this announcement. The fact that they will only gradually modify existing chargers to work with other vehicles is a disappointment. It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. I am really lookin…

> It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. Nope. CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V. That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more…

All CCS cars support 400V charging, though. Just some of them do it much more slowly compared to an 800V charger.

This is why Tesla is able to work with CCS, despite superchargers not supporting 800V.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#125

Post by _ea1k »

Suppafly wrote: post #41
xnx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They take up 2 spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...

Apparently that's the recommended way from Tesla to do it, per that thread. Do they not make extension cords you can use with the charger cables so you charge from other angles?

A2Z has announced an extension cord, but tbh it sounds like a bad idea: https://a2zevshop.com/products/dc-nacs-extension-cord-6-9-ft...

That's a lot of power through an air cooled cable.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#126

Post by zdragnar »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #35
zdragnar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps. The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.

Since fast DC charging takes more time, there's a lot more time for a person to buy something from the store.

Gas stations depend on cycling people through quickly during rush hour. A half dozen people sitting around for half an hour at a time won't spend enough to make up the difference in volume of traffic a normal station gets, and they don't typically devote space for lounges or other amenities unless they're nice long haul truck stops.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#127

Post by _ea1k »

78adad2323 wrote: post #63

Has anyone does a trade-in value for these EVs? The depreciation of these EV vehicles are crazy...

People say that, but just like with other cars, it is very vehicle, timing, and trim dependent. The Rivians seem to be doing ok. Even a lot of Teslas are doing ok, not great.

Those Model Ys that people bought for ~70k a couple of years ago? Those are makin' some headlines.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#128

Post by Schiendelman »

ggreer wrote: post #64
menthe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take this to daddy Elon - this has absolutely nothing to do with Rivian.

Rivian placed their charging port on the front left corner, while Teslas have ports on the rear left corner. So to charge a Rivian at a Tesla Supercharger, you have to park in the adjacent spot and plug in.[1] More Supercharging stations are adding "trailer compatible" spots, so this should become less of an issue over time. I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas…

Rivian designed their vehicles long before Tesla offered them access to superchargers.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#129

Post by _ea1k »

isaacdl wrote: post #7
nimbius wrote: post #3

I applaud the effort to expand charging across the nation as this will inevitably increase the comfort level of the average joe on the fence with range anxiety. The elephant in the room that nobody is talking about is the connector. There are SEVEN different competing charging connector types in North America. if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow…

What are the 7? In my experience, the two that really matter are J1772/CCS1 and NACS (Tesla). There's a scattering of CHADeMO, but I haven't yet seen a Level 3 DC charger that has CHADeMO only - the cabinet also has a CCS1 plug. Most (all?) manufacturers will be moving to NACS in the next few years. Luckily, J1772/CCS1 and NACS are protocol-level compatible, so adaptors are relatively cheap and easy to make. The rema…

I'm guessing that 7 comes from splitting J1772 from CCS1. It sort of makes sense, I guess. There are even a few EVs with J1772 but not CCS1 (eg, the early Chevrolet Bolt without the DCFC option).

I agree with you, though. Splitting it out is weird at this point. It'd be a bit like pointing at all the different grades of gasoline and saying filling gas cars is hard. 87 octane, 89 octane, 92 octane, e-85 (try explaining the difference between the 85% ethanol and octane to people for some real fun), race gas, 100LL, ethanol free in several octanes. And that's not even getting into oil viscosities. Of course, the real world isn't hard at all.

EV standards aren't really hard in the real world either, though there is a little learning curve.

Post reply on HN